This “Christian” LIE is Quietly Deceiving Millions
Inside This Episode
Manifestation. The Law of Attraction. The Cosmic Christ. The idea that we’re all divine. These aren’t just trending ideas – they’re rooted in the New Thought movement, and according to Christian Apologist Melissa Dougherty, they’re quietly making their way into the church.
In this interview, Melissa shares her journey from being fully immersed in New Thought beliefs to becoming a bold voice calling them out. She breaks down how these teachings disguise themselves as Christianity – and why so many believers don’t even notice.
She also talks about her brand-new children’s book on the resurrection of Jesus, "The Day That Made The Way" – what inspired it and why teaching kids biblical truth from the start has never been more important.
Melissa’s new children’s book, "The Day That Made The Way"
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Transcript
Eric Huffman: Are millions of Christians practicing a false gospel without even knowing it?
Melissa Dougherty: New Thought in two words it's metaphysical Christianity. In a sentence, it's the positive thinking movement in America with Jesus as its mascot. In a person, I would say that it's [bleep]. It's a lust of power is what it is. God's sovereignty? Mm, pope, want none of that. So what you're going to do is you're going to follow this guy who says, "Yeah, actually that power belongs to us."
Eric Huffman: How have pastors distorted the Easter story with New Thought ideology?
Melissa Dougherty: Ultimately, the whole idea is that the resurrection is about the Christ rising within you. We can conquer death.
Eric Huffman: If you get the resurrection wrong, everything else is a house of cards. And I used to get it very wrong. It didn't matter to me that Jesus physically rose from the dead, but what I really believed is that it didn't happen.
Melissa Dougherty: Wow.
Eric Huffman: Today, author and apologist Melissa Dougherty offers an honest look into her own personal experiences with a hidden gospel that she believes is quietly ravaging the American church.
Melissa Dougherty: It was still Christianity, but it was just better. It was more spiritual. The way that it was kind of in my mind was, y'all are like the basement Christians, right? Like you're down here, you're on a lower spiritual plane. When we're presented with information that really objectively contradicts our worldview, we do one of two things. One, we double down or you repent. For me, I repented. I was embarrassed.
Eric Huffman: What would you say to someone who might have been attracted to these New Thought ideas? What are the first steps toward freedom?
Melissa Dougherty: I know this is going to sound elementary, but...
Eric Huffman: Melissa Dougherty, welcome to Maybe God.
Melissa Dougherty: Hi, thanks for having me again.
Eric Huffman: I should say, welcome back to Maybe God. We've had you once before, and it was awesome. And we've been so excited to have you back.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, it was great to be on last time, too. So I was like, "Oh yeah, I get to do another interview with you guys," so.
Eric Huffman: Thank you. We really like you here and I can't wait to get into more of your story and also a brand new project you've taken on, a new book about the resurrection we'll talk about in a little bit. But first, for those that may not know you, let's talk about your story. It's such a rare testimony. You know, you were sort of raised in, or at least you lived under a New Age and New Thought belief systems that we're going to talk more about later. And now you're critiquing those belief systems from a Christian perspective. But what was it that first drew you in to the New Age movement?
Melissa Dougherty: Well, I grew up, it was really New Thought, but I always say I've never met a New Ager that's also not a New Thoughter. So there's definitely overlap. And I wrote a whole book on it, Happy Lies, which is what I was on last time to talk to you about. And so definitely there's a lot more information there, wrote a whole book about it. But I technically grew up in the New Thought movement, but nobody calls it that; it's Christian. And always got a little bit of New Age sprinkled in. I never knew anything different.
And then I became a Christian at 16, there was a general overlap there. And then fast forward to my adult life, realized, "Oh, this isn't what I thought it was." That was around 2011. And then fast forward when I really understood that there's a big difference between New Age, New Thought, definitely more into New Thought is what I was in and decided to write about it.
And then New Age, I talk about New Age all the time too. They always intersect, they always overlap. And I think that this is probably one of the most dangerous spiritual deceptions for Christians is primarily New Thought. But New Age, a lot of Christians just, oh, we see the power and we want it. And so no matter what bucket it's in, that's typically what can draw them in.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Melissa Dougherty: It's the power of thinking that, oh, God wants me to have that.
Eric Huffman: Even after our last conversation, when we kind of got into the distinction between New Age and New Thought, we had people in the comments and I've had people address me directly and just still, they're not quite sure how to distinguish the two. And we'll get into that hopefully even more clarity in a moment. And I've heard you say that when you were raised, you said you became a Christian at 16, but you would have said you were a Christian before then. Is that correct?
Melissa Dougherty: No.
Eric Huffman: No?
Melissa Dougherty: No.
Eric Huffman: So when you say you were raised New Thought, my understanding is that New Thought typically sort of tries to align as Christian, but you wouldn't have called yourself a Christian before then?
Melissa Dougherty: I wouldn't have called myself a Christian in the sense that, I mean, maybe I would have said, "I'm going to check the bottle again, I guess I'm Christian," kind of thing. But I would have had what I would have considered to be true Christian beliefs. I just never thought about it very much. You know what I mean?
Eric Huffman: Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: I'm a 16-year-old snot-nose kid. You know what I mean? I don't know what I'm doing-
Eric Huffman: You're spiritual.
Melissa Dougherty: ...but I think I know what I'm doing. And so I just never thought about it until I came across it and... well, I didn't come across it. I was 16, somebody told me the Gospel and I believed and that was life-changing. That's when I cared.
But no, I don't, I mean, we went to church sometimes, but I wouldn't say that I understood. It was like a shelved topic, but I always believed that humans had this spiritual potential power and that's what Jesus taught. I always believed in God. I would have said, maybe I'm spiritual. I'm like, "Yeah, I guess I'm Christian," kind of like an afterthought.
Eric Huffman: I'm sorry to interrupt you. It sounds like you might've thought you were more Christian than Christians.
Melissa Dougherty: Oh yeah.
Eric Huffman: Okay. That's helpful to understand.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. Even after I became a Christian, I separated myself into my own little category. I mean, it's like it progressed, right?
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Melissa Dougherty: I mean, I became a Christian. Those are like the best three or four months of my life. By the way, it was amazing. It was like my honeymoon with God, right? And then, you know, life happens. But as time went on and I grew, and I'm like, "Oh, I don't like you, gross, judgmental, closed-minded Christians." I felt like there was what a lot of what I think progressive Christians see, honestly, like this caricature, and sometimes not, if I'm honest, of really just harsh, legalistic, mean, hard-hearted, really judgmental kind of people that you find in the church. And sometimes whole denominations. And I'm like, "No, I want nothing to do with that."
And then that just overlapped with general Christians who actually believed what the Bible said, and they're great people, right? They're kind. And so I just kind of broad-brushed. I made a generalization and I'm like, "I don't want to be like that." So I tried to separate myself and be one of the tolerant, coexist sticker kind of Christians.
Eric Huffman: Hey there, I'd just like to quickly thank all of you who subscribed to Maybe God. You guys are the reason that this podcast exists. And our team is so honored that you keep coming back week after week for these conversations about faith and doubt. I hope that you'll engage with me and our other viewers in the comment section. And please feel free to include your questions and your ideas for future episodes. And if you haven't yet subscribed to Maybe God, but conversations like this one matter to you, I hope that you'll click that "subscribe" button right now so that you can stay connected to this channel. Your support means the world to me personally and to my team here at Maybe God, and it helps get our conversations in front of more people. So we just wanted to thank you so much again for watching and thank you for subscribing to Maybe God. Now let's jump back in.
Is that what you refer to as metaphysical Christianity?
Melissa Dougherty: New Thought.
Eric Huffman: Is that where that led?
Melissa Dougherty: New Thought. Yeah, yeah. And it was still Christianity, but it was just better. It was more spiritual. It was more loving. The way that it was kind of in my mind was y'all are like the basement Christians. Like you're down here, you're on a lower spiritual thing.
Eric Huffman: You just don't get it.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, you don't get it. You gotta come up here. You gotta see it through a lens of love. You guys think you know what love is, but you're judging and you're not open-minded. You're so closed-minded. And don't you know there's more spiritual secrets to know?
So there was just like this climbing of the spiritual ladder in a Christian sense. And, oh man, we see this a lot today. This is not something that is just... that's why I wrote a whole book about it, right? Because it's everywhere. It's in society, in the church, and we find it within the Word of Faith movement, progressive Christianity. We talked a lot about that in the last interview. That's in general, my background.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, yeah, mine too, actually. The more I think about it, I would not have said it until I read your book and I talked to you, and I started to think, yeah, the ways in which I was deceived before I was really saved, when I thought I was a Christian, but I wasn't, it was very much along the same lines. I mean, I was a pastor at that time. I was just a progressive sort of crazy, politically driven pastor. And I would incorporate non-Christian resources into my Christian teachings. I remember having a book study at my church on The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran, which was sort of one example of I think what you're referring to in terms of metaphysical Christianity or New Thought, which isn't really Christian at all. It's superimposing a whole different worldview onto Christianity, as I look back.
Melissa Dougherty: It's syncretism.
Eric Huffman: Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: And I love that contextualization, syncretism. Contextualizing is you're still apart from it, but you're trying to be among it, right? This is what Paul did. Well, you go into the Greeks and you're like, "I know my audience. I know how to word things a certain way so that they can understand what I'm saying. And I care enough about them to know what they believe." And so in that posture, you try to reach people.
But syncretism, it's like becoming a Muslim to win the Muslim, right? It's becoming what they are, part of what they are, and in syncing together with that. Christianity cannot sync with the world. It's not that kind of belief system. It's apart from the world. Yeah, following Jesus means you die to yourself. You don't just be amongst the other selves. It's a separation. That's what holy means. And so, yeah, there was just all this stuff I just didn't get. It just sounded so basement to me. And I'm like, man. Now I get it, I'm like, man, that's so cool. That's actually really amazing the story of Christianity and how it actually is supposed to contextually be. When I learned that, I'm like, man, that's incredible.
Eric Huffman: It's way deeper than you ever thought. When you thought that kind of Christianity was the bottom rung in the hierarchy, when your eyes are open, you realize the hierarchy's flipped. You've seen it in the inverse. And I remember feeling so superior to Christians that just clung to their Bibles. I was so much more enlightened than them. And I remember thinking one day, maybe one day they'll get it. One day they'll rise to my level. I wouldn't have said it like that, but I know that's how I was thinking.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, maybe you and I did have similar beliefs then.
Eric Huffman: I'm just sort of unpacking it still. I guess it wasn't that long ago. But when did you start to see the cracks in your own foundation of those New Thought beliefs?
Melissa Dougherty: Two Jehovah's Witnesses kind of challenged me. I didn't know. I thought we all believed the same thing. If you said you were a Christian, didn't matter if you were a Mormon, if you were this, if you were that, didn't not matter. We all basically believed in the same thing, just in different ways. It was always about what did we agree on, right? That was my posture. I never wanted to rock the boat or criticize or do anything like that.
And so it was when I realized there was so many things that they believed that wasn't a rumor. I'm like, "This doesn't land right, even with me." I had my first daughter and I still had Bible questions and there was a tug there. And I'm like, "Oh, they're going to teach me the Bible." No, no, they are not going to teach you the Bible.
I researched them, long story short. I started doing studies with them. And as I'm researching them, I realized, oh my, this is not what I thought it was. And then I started simultaneously researching things that came alongside them that challenged my own beliefs. Again, long story short, it just kind of pulled the rug from underneath me. And I realized, "Oh, this isn't what I thought it was."
I think that that's the pinnacle point right there. Because when we're presented with information that really objectively contradicts our worldview, we do one of two things. One, we double down because of the sunk cost. The sunk cost fallacy. "I've given my whole life to this. I have to make this work." Or you repent. "I am so sorry, Lord. What have I done?" And face on the floor, sackcloth and ashes, repent. There's usually one of those two things that we do.
For me, I repented. I was embarrassed. And that began a journey of me just learning what was I into? I thought it was New Age, like I said. But even right away, I realized, oh, this isn't... what was I in? Because what I was in seemed a lot more Christian than this New Age thing. But I guess it's all New Age, it's all the same thing. It's like this broad name for these pseudo-spiritual beliefs. And so everybody just kind of throws everything into the New Age bucket.
But it wasn't until a long time went by and I realized, "Oh, New Thought is very different than New Age." And so that's when I decided to write a book about it. And what's interesting, the topic of today, this one right here, The Day That Made The Way. You can go to madetheway.com. This one's kind of subsequently, I want to say the same essence of truth, because the book is called Happy Lies. But it's like for kids. It's for them to understand what the actual Gospel is in a very simple way.
What's really cool about this is that I joke with my daughter because she was like a big catalyst for me learning about New Age, New Thought. And I always say that she helped me become closer to God, that God used her in that way.
And then in writing this book, my kids got to be a part of it. They actually got to help pick the art. They got to send in some of their art. We got some Easter eggs in there. We have a hot air balloon in there.
Eric Huffman: Hey, I loved it.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, thank you, guys.
Eric Huffman: For our viewers, Melissa knows how much I love hot air balloons. I'm kind of a geek.
Melissa Dougherty: My husband's a hot air balloon pilot. And so we got to put like fun little Easter eggs, even some of the characters in there.
Eric Huffman: That's cool.
Melissa Dougherty: They got to design. I mean, it was just really cool to kind of bring it full circle and bring it into this idea and this journey, the story, not just in Happy Lies, but just later on just kind of bringing my kids in it and having them have like a front row seat to, "Hey, this is what your mom does. This is what ministry looks like and this is what deception is."
Eric Huffman: I thought it was so awesome. And I do want to get way more into the book in a moment when we talk about the resurrection, but I was surprised that you, Melissa, for your next big project after Happy Lies, wrote a children's book, first of all, and a book about the resurrection specifically. But it makes sense as you talk, because as you tell about the Jehovah's Witness experience, it sounds like when you were faced with that choice to double down or repent, what you were really confronted with was the reality of truth, like absolute truth, because they were not of the same mind you were about truth. They weren't ready to say, "Well, yeah, it's fine to disagree. We're all going to Heaven, different paths to the same destination." They were like, "No, this is the path."
And to double down for you at that point would have been to say, "Well, they just don't get it yet. They're not as enlightened as me," but something about that experience opened your eyes to the possibility, at least, of absolute truth, of objective truth that stands above all of our expressions of religion and everything. And at that point, it really turns you around.
When did you, in that turnaround, discover the idea or the ideology of New Thought? Because that's not really something most people have even heard of, I don't think. Like they have New Age. How'd you stumble onto that?
Melissa Dougherty: Well, it was right in 2011 when I realized, "Oh, what am I in?" And that's the first time I heard the term New Thought. But New Age was, boom, like everywhere. Like New Age was, you know, the cool kid in class. If you had a weird belief system, oh, it's probably New Age. And so that was that. I was an ex-New Ager.
And time went on and what it really was is, I think it was like, man, it takes forever to write a book. Such a different experience writing with Brave Books because it's just not as taking over of your life for years. What year was it? I want to say 2022, I can't remember what year it was. But anyway, I was taking a break from seminary and I had this stack of books that I was wanting to get through and read. And as I'm reading them, I'm reading things about like progressive Christianity, critical theory, Carl Trueman's book. Do I even have it up here? No, there's another one. I have tons of books always around me. Like, where is it? Carl Trueman, reading his book.
I mean, there's just all these books, these different topics. And I'm starting to notice this thread of, "Wow, this sounds a lot like what I grew up with. Why does this sound like New Age? New Age? No, no, this is New Thought." And so I started going down this path of, okay, well, this is New Age over here. And I started realizing that there's this other historical movement that is separate. And it was just like, once I realized this, once I saw, I'm like, oh my, these are two different movements that teach two different things. And historically speaking, New Thought is definitely more interwoven in the history of American thought than this is actually a philosophy, a movement, not a religion necessarily, that it could be kind of both secular and it can be both spiritual. It's found in your self-help section, but they don't talk about crystals. They don't talk about yoga. They don't talk about psychic mediums. They don't talk about Mother Earth. Maybe they'll talk about the universe. There's separate things that define these two. And I was like, "Oh, that explains a lot." I'm like, "I'm really an ex-New Thoughter."
And then the books on my shelf. See, the thing is, is that I grew up with a bunch of books from my grandmother, my great grandmother, and I would read them as a kid. Again, you never really hear like New Thought. And if I did, it didn't really click for me until all those years later. It was always just Christianity, metaphysical Christianity, or metaphysical practitioners. It was just the way that they put it, the way that they would word it. Oh, and here's one right here. Watch, The New Thought Christian. I didn't own this one. I actually ordered this one. I just saw it when I was looking for the other book. Oh no, it's under my elbow. Like, it's just explaining like what New Thought is. Like, "I am" affirmations, the Christ within, all these things." And I'm like, "Yeah, that's what I grew up with. Definitely New Thought." So when I realized that, it was like, oh man, this can't be a video. This has to be a book. And so that's where Happy Lies came from.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, it's such an impactful book. Yeah, it's so good.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, it was so good.
Eric Huffman: And it was so eye-opening. As I mentioned, it just helped me to understand my own upbringing because New Thought has been so sort of baked in to the culture and certainly to some Christian expressions. As a progressive Christian, I didn't even see it for all those years before Jesus finally found me. But again, I just would love to try and help our viewers parse out the two, New Age and New Thought. So I'd like to do a little fun exercise with you. All right?
Melissa Dougherty: Sure.
Eric Huffman: Melissa, this is going to be elementary level for you probably, but for the rest of us, hopefully this will be helpful. I'm going to tell you a certain practice or belief and all you gotta do is say that's New Age or New Thought, or I'll give you a little bit of a bye and you can also say both. You know, if it's both, that's fine, all right? But I'm looking for whether it's more New Age or more New Thought. So something like yoga.
Melissa Dougherty: New Age.
Eric Huffman: Okay. Meditation.
Melissa Dougherty: Both, depends on the type.
Eric Huffman: All right. Tarot card readings.
Melissa Dougherty: New Age.
Eric Huffman: Astral projection.
Melissa Dougherty: New Age.
Eric Huffman: Christ consciousness.
Melissa Dougherty: New Thought.
Eric Huffman: Okay. Right thinking leads to right outcomes.
Melissa Dougherty: New Thought. Sometimes both, but typically that is New Thought, yeah.
Eric Huffman: Psychic mediums.
Melissa Dougherty: New Age.
Eric Huffman: The idea that every person is divine.
Melissa Dougherty: Both.
Eric Huffman: Both, all right.
Melissa Dougherty: And technically there might be an overlap there with the psychic mediums, because a lot of people who taught the spiritual beliefs, like Law of Attraction and things like that, got it from other spirits. But the way that they would look at that is different. So there's a caveat to that one, yeah.
Eric Huffman: Karma and reincarnation.
Melissa Dougherty: New Age.
Eric Huffman: Okay. Affirmations and visualizations.
Melissa Dougherty: New Thought.
Eric Huffman: Manifesting.
Melissa Dougherty: New Thought. Again, there's some overlap, but that is typically.
Eric Huffman: Sure, I know this has gotta be hard for you not to go deeper, but thank you for entertaining. One more. Chakras and energy manipulation.
Melissa Dougherty: Chakras, definitely New Age. Energy manipulation, both.
Eric Huffman: Chakras, New Age. Energy manipulation, both. Okay. All right. So if you could just sum up in a line or two the differences or distinctions between New Age and New Thought, how would you sum it up?
Melissa Dougherty: New Age is, think of Hinduism and Buddhism, more Eastern, and you recognize it. New Thought... and here's what I'll do. In two words, it's metaphysical Christianity. In a sentence, it's the positive thinking movement in America with Jesus as its mascot. In a person, I would say that it's Oprah Winfrey.
Eric Huffman: Okay, that is awesome.
Melissa Dougherty: Oh, and it's more Gnostic. It's Gnostic in origin. So that's why there's that, you know, like, "Oh, this sounds Christian-y and secretive and hidden." It's always about secret knowledge. It's definitely more New Thought.
Eric Huffman: Okay, very helpful. I hope that helps some of our viewers figure that out, too. I'm sure there's a longer list of things we could have named, but that's, to me, very helpful to parse it out and know what we're talking about when we talk about these things. Now, in terms of the church and New Thought's infiltration into Christianity, what do you see happening in the modern church in America? Let's say, where do you see that infiltration happening specifically today? What's concerning you?
Melissa Dougherty: It's a few things. First, our misunderstanding of the Bible and what it actually teaches. I know that sounds very elementary. But hermeneutically speaking, we have a very self-centered, self-centric view of Scripture. We don't read the Bible to understand God. We read the Bible to understand us. It should be both. It should be both, but it's kind of looked at as a self-help book. We don't really read it to understand it. Wes Huff, he just did an interview with... what's his name? Shawn Ryan, I think that's his name. And Shawn Ryan was bringing up Jesus Calling. And he's like, "Yeah, I'd rather read Jesus Calling than the Bible, because I can understand it." And I was like, "Yeah." My friend Alisa, she was like, "Yeah, well, deception is supposed to be easier to understand." I was like, "Dang, that's good." And so I think that there's a lack of that.
We don't understand certain basic core doctrines of Christianity, and they're fascinating. It's so fascinating. The Bible is not boring. It's actually the most fascinating book ever. We just ignore those parts. Like, who wants to go over all the weird stuff that... I'm like, "No, let's talk about the Old Testament. Let's talk about the weird stuff. Let's lean into that. Let's learn about it and the things that we do know and work back from there. Like the resurrection, the Gospel stories, the things that we can know and move back from there.
That's kind of like the foundation, but infiltration-wise, I mean, you got prosperity teachings, you got the affirmations, you got all these things that are pseudo-Christianity that are really New Thought. And it's in the culture and large as well. So once you spot it, once you see it, like you can't unsee it.
Eric Huffman: What do you say to somebody that might be watching or listening and thinking, "Is my church New Thought?" Like what kinds of codes, code words, phrases, whatever are common in churches where New Thought is infiltrated the teaching, or maybe you could just share, name names and share, like you mentioned the Word of Faith movement earlier, prosperity movement, stuff like that. What else would you say there to watch out for?
Melissa Dougherty: Well, I'm going to be specific and then I'll work towards a general. So specifically, Word of Faith, prosperity, NAR, New Apostolic Reformation are undeniably, undeniably, they share DNA with New Thought. Any historian worth their fancy quill pen will tell you this. It's not that it's there, it's how it got there. That's kind of the big question mark.
What do I mean by Word of Faith and NAR? Think Bill Johnson, Bethel Redding, Kris Vallotton, Todd White, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen. There's a lot. Gosh, Creflo Dollar. You know, you have Mike Todd, Steven Furtick, and there's spectrums. You have like hard on the wall, Word of Faith, prosperity, Jesse Duplantis. And then you have the spectrum over here where maybe it's like a mixture of like, you know, seeker friendly, a little bit more evangelical, but still has prosperity leanings like Steven Furtick, right?
Eric Huffman: Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: And so there's a spectrum of it. So there's that. But I wouldn't say that like Steven Furtick is NAR. So New Apostolic Reformation is a little different. It's an extension of it. All NAR is Word of Faith, but not all Word of Faith is NAR.
Eric Huffman: Would these people say that they're New Thought practitioners or would they deny that?
Melissa Dougherty: No. No. They have no idea what it is, but they believe the beliefs.
Eric Huffman: Then how does it happen? Is it theological misunderstanding, is it accidental, or is there something more nefarious going on whenever this stuff takes root in churches?
Melissa Dougherty: What it starts with is somebody coming, saying, "I heard from God. God told me this." And then that person is revered as a prophet. And they are looked at as like this... because New Thought is from Gnosticism, and Gnostic is secret knowledge. And everybody thinks they hear from God, right? They don't discern that, though. They don't know how to discern. There's wisdom.
All discernment is good, proper judgment. It's being able to judge properly. Nobody thinks they're being deceived or deceiving. And it's usually the false teachers are the ones who think they are the most discerning people in the room. And so we have to discern that.
But if you're going to go back to the organics of it, the beginnings, I mean, you're having these fathers of the Word of Faith movement, right? Looking at what's going on in America, like, "Why are they getting healed? Why are they speaking things into existence? We ought to be able to do that. We're the church. We should have the power." And then you have the Pentecostal movement going on. And so it's power. It's a lust of power is what it is. It's a cult. It's looking at somebody doing a cult things, getting results, and you want those same results. So you're going to push the envelope. You're going to do what it takes to get what you want. You know what? God's sovereignty? Mm-mm, Nope, want none of that. So what you're going to do is you're going to follow this guy who says, "Yeah, actually that power belongs to us." Oh, it does? Yeah, look, it's in the Bible. And then you get these whole movements from it.
Eric Huffman: It seems like a shortcut.
Melissa Dougherty: It is a shortcut.
Eric Huffman: Because there's real power, real better power in the actual Gospel and the Word of God. But you have to sit with it. It's like a meal you have to cook from scratch, you know? And it takes hours and hours and hours of effort and work and attention. But you could just go to the cupboard and grab a bag of chips and feel really good now, you know? That's what it seems like to me.
Melissa Dougherty: What do they call it? Instant gratification. Then the other part is that those are whole churches. But generally speaking, the question isn't really, "Is my church New Thought?" The question is, "Are you New Thought?" That's the question. Because that's part of what's so stealthy about it is that... I mean, I mentioned Jesus Calling before. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily... I'm sure there's some New Thought things I haven't really read the book in a while. The problem is that individual Christians are reading material that has these metaphysical manifestation, "I am" affirmations, thoughts are things.
I mean, look at MLMs, multi-level marketing companies, okay? Those are absolutely saturated, saturated with New Thought. The books, the teachings, the mindset meetings they have, it's very New Thought. And a lot of Christians are a part of them. That's just one element. So that's the question. I mean, then you go to church on Sunday and you're over here sitting next to Brenda and you're telling her, "Hey, guess what I learned last night?" You know what I mean?
Eric Huffman: Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: So from the pulpit, it might be okay. I test the pulpit. But I've learned, oh man, you also gotta test the pew.
Eric Huffman: The Sunday school class.
Melissa Dougherty: You also gotta be like, "What do you mean by that? What did you just hear? Where'd you read this?" So that's kind of the long and short of it.
Eric Huffman: Well, I know that there are people watching right now that probably don't have the same personal experience you do with this and they just might feel... Like, I can understand how somebody might feel like, what's the harm in it if they're going to church and it's making them a better person and it makes them happy and more fulfilled to believe these things? Like, why go out of your way to criticize what they believe? What would you say to that line of argument?
Melissa Dougherty: That's what I call the "it works" trap. That's why my book is called Happy Lies, by the way. The idea that if something works for you and it makes you feel better is not a very good test of its truthfulness. You know what I mean?
Eric Huffman: Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: Think of all the things that work for you that make you happy. Go tell the trans person that, who's lying to themselves. Go tell that to the husband who's cheating on his wife.
Eric Huffman: Go tell it to any addict who gets really happy with a high.
Melissa Dougherty: And those are some extremes. But what I'm saying is, is that we ought to be able to discern. And that's the other thing, occultic things are supposed to work. They're supposed to make you feel better. That's why we want them. That's why we want these practices. That's why we want to break the rules, so to speak. It's the power.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Melissa Dougherty: Of course it's going to work. Of course it's going to make you happier. But as my friend Frank Turek says, People are not on a truth quest, they're on a happiness quest. And the idea is, and I know this sounds like a false dichotomy where it's like, "Oh, well, if I get truth, then I won't be happy." No, no, that's the exact opposite. There's a joy. There's a joy.
And I remember I was reading, it's in the Old Testament, Solomon, I think it was Lamentations or Ecclesiastes, one of those. And he's saying basically that the more he knows, the more grief he has. Like the more knowledge I gain, the more I know about you people, the more I know about the world, the more I grieve because now I know more truth. I know more... That's not necessarily a bad thing. It helps you make sense of reality and it helps you know who God is, because that's really ultimately the point at the end is none of it matters without God.
Sure, go be happy. Go live your life, but there's going to always be an end to that. This is why Jesus is the living water. I mean, go drink your water, you're going to be thirsty again. That's what He says, "Go eat your bread, you're going to be hungry again. But I will fulfill you, I will sustain you. Yes, you will have persecution, you will have pain and sorrow in this life, but I will always be with you." And that is a God worth following. A God that says, "I just want you to be happy. I don't want you to feel any pain," that is not a God I want. That is not a God I can follow or believe in. It's a God that will come with me in the trenches. I mean, there's a lot to say on that.
Eric Huffman: I get it. It's hard to boil it down, but I mean, you're doing a great job. It's just I remember being on a happiness quest and truth was along for the ride as long as I needed it to be.
Melissa Dougherty: It's razor pointer. Just trying to patch it.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. I just want our viewers to hear your compassion for people that are stuck in this mindset, in this worldview because you deeply desire them to be free from it like you were, because you know what better things are on the other side of it. What would you say to someone who might be, have been attracted to these, you know, the Law of Attraction and all these other affirmations and New Thought ideas, and they're looking for a way out of it? How do they escape it? What are the first steps toward freedom?
Melissa Dougherty: Well, I think one of the things that I find very helpful, at least for me, well, first and number one, I've been there. But number two, what was really helpful for me was, I know this is going to sound elementary, but a basic understanding of what truth is. And that really helped open my mind to critical thinking and logic. Because all it is is all logic is. It's not some weird professory dude behind a door, you know, talking about these abstract things. I mean, you're talking about laws of logic. You're talking about laws of truth, objective reality. And that's all that logic is, is trying to discover what's true. There's such a foundation there for me.
And so if you're stuck in this, Jesus says He's the truth. He doesn't call Satan the father of sin; He calls Satan the father of lies. So if you're believing in something that is bringing results but it's ultimately deceptive, it's a lie, then what you're going to want to remedy that with is truth. And so I say, really lean into Scriptures, really understand who Jesus is, what the foundational fundamental facts are of reality. What is a fallacy, right? Like, what is a logical fallacy? What is it about the Law of Attraction that forces you to not critically think? Because critical thinking is negative thinking. That's not good. Because then I can't analyze what's happening because you're told to stay always in this mindset and feeling. And feelings are very, very important. You have to feel your reality.
So if you're not getting healthy, you have to deny that. You don't actually deny it; you affirm that you're healthy even when you're not. So that's the irony: you're actually living a lie saying that it's true. Think about that. Like you're like, "I am healthy. I am wealthy. I am lovable." What if you're a jerk? Okay. What if you actually need to repent? What if you're part of the problem? You know what I mean? It's like, oh. It's like boom, boom, boom. I say lean into Scripture, really understand what truth of reality is. And when you know better, you do better.
Eric Huffman: That's right. As opposed to when you affirm better, declare better, you do better, when you know better, you'll do better. But it's not really just about doing better, first of all. It's about truth. And I think once you see the lies, repent of them. You can't really turn toward something else until you turn away from what you've been facing. I think sometimes Christians try and bring along those bad ideas toward the good idea. And that's just not how it works. You have to repent.
Melissa Dougherty: Don't double down, in other words.
Eric Huffman: That's right.
Melissa Dougherty: I remember I was like, "You can be this way." Don't double down, lean into it. Lean into it.
Eric Huffman: I remember, again, when I was in that world, I've never thought of myself as a New Thoughter until, frankly, very recently and getting ready for this interview. Part of the reason I know is because...
Melissa Dougherty: There's whole chapter about that, progressive Christianity and the overlap of New Thought.
Eric Huffman: I used to preach sermon series about the Cosmic Christ, for example, which I was deep into Richard Rohr and Marcus Borg and those guys were my heroes. And I preached a very different resurrection. I'd like to talk for the rest of the time here specifically about the resurrection, because getting that right is getting Christ right is getting the Gospel right and everything right. And if you get the resurrection wrong, everything else is a house of cards. And I used to get it very wrong.
It didn't matter to me that Jesus physically rose from the dead. I used to say it didn't matter. But what I really believed is that it didn't happen. I didn't believe people came back from the dead. And so what was it that rose on Easter morning? Well, in my worldview then, my New Thought worldview, was the social, spiritual, social justice uprising of the movement.
Melissa Dougherty: Metopher.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, it was metaphorical and the disciples that claimed to see Jesus really just had a supernatural sort of... hallucination is a strong word, but they had a spiritual experience and their spirits were set on fire. And then they started feeding the poor and empowering women and spreading what I called the Gospel then. I had it all wrong. And again, I fell under some influences that I thought I could trust: Borg and Rohr and the rest.
But it wasn't really until 2013 that Jesus saved me and I was confronted with evidence that I couldn't deny that He physically rose from the dead. And I know now that I was wrong all those years, but really it was only after reading Happy Lies that I realized I'd been preaching New Thought.
Melissa Dougherty: That's incredible. Wow.
Eric Huffman: But how do New Thought views of the resurrection specifically differ from historic Christian understanding of the resurrection?
Melissa Dougherty: It's kind of what you just said. It's metaphysical, which means that there's a metaphysical meaning to it. It's not literal. And speaking of Richard Rohr, I remember reading something in a group that it's like, "Yeah, Christ has risen in me. I am the Christ," kind of thing, right? And his view of... So there's Christ consciousness and then there's Cosmic Christ. There's a difference between those two views. Christ consciousness is only for humans. It's something that is within us. The Cosmic Christ is something that Richard Rohr spouts. And that's basically more of like a universal type of belief.
But ultimately, the whole idea is that the resurrection is about the Christ rising within you. And in my research, I remember going to a Unity center, which is one of the largest New Thought churches. It was Palm Sunday. It was a week before Palm Sunday. Or was it? I can't remember, but they have something called a rose ceremony. And they gather together and they celebrate the resurrection as the divine within them.
So they go and they celebrate themselves, their own inner divinity, because that's how they view Jesus, that He was this way-shower. And so the resurrection... and there's a few different answers you'll get depending on who you're talking to in this movement. But I remember reading that if Jesus rose from the dead, not only was it like a spiritual thing, but this shows the potential of humanity. This is something we can do. We can conquer death.
And I remember hearing that and I'm like, "Nobody's coming back from the dead though. Nobody's rising from the dead. Nobody's doing what Jesus did." So there's all these claims. It's that laser pointer, right? It's like, "Oh, we can get it, we can get it, we can get it." It's just this illusion. We can do what Jesus did and more.
Eric Huffman: When you said that, I was thinking about what's happening now with technology and the transhumanist kind of movement. Is there a connection there?
Melissa Dougherty: Oh yeah, there's a book for it. Hold on. There's another book I'm leaning on. This one, Game of Gods by Carl Teichrib, The Temple of Man in the Age of Re-Enchantment, it's all about transhumanism. It's really thick, but it's wonderful. He goes into great detail about that.
Eric Huffman: But it's connected to the New Thought idea somehow?
Melissa Dougherty: Oh yeah, he's actually one of the people that peer-reviewed a few of my chapters. He talks about New Age, New Thought. Oh my, he knows... all those weird fringe spiritualities that are everywhere he knows about. Like he goes to Burning Man once a year. He's just a great... Man, people need to know more about Carl's work. But he talks about a lot of that fringe spirituality too.
Eric Huffman: So was there a time when you believed kind of what I believed when I was in this world? We're talking about the resurrection. Did you think of the resurrection spiritually?
Melissa Dougherty: Yes. Well, the way that you described it was how I believed it. Even as a kid growing up, which again, The Day That Made The Way, go to madetheway.com for the book and stuff. But the idea is that as a kid growing up, the idea of the resurrection was very similar to how the Unity minister proclaimed it. Like you did the Easter thing, you went to church, you heard about the resurrection, but it was always more to the story. Like there was always like this, this... my mom would be driving home and she's like, "Yeah, you know guys, I mean that was true of what he said, but Jesus, He did this, He did that. And did you know that if he could use a hundred percent of your brain, you could actually do this and that?" You know what I mean? Which is a lie by the way? That's actually not true. We all use a hundred percent of our brain. I mean, most of us.
Eric Huffman: It's a happy lie.
Melissa Dougherty: The neuroscience and the quantum mechanics and blah, blah, blah, the science that nobody verified. And they'd like quote it. And then they would come alongside of the spiritual essence of Jesus. And then it gets really Gnostic, where He rose in a metaphorical way. So it kind of just depends on who you're talking to. But it was not literal. It had to be anything other than Jesus literally died for your sin. Because that's going to hurt, that's going to shame people. You don't say that.
Eric Huffman: It's divine child abuse. Yeah, all that stuff.
Melissa Dougherty: Yes, yes. And then in the Old Testament has to be completely rewritten. Because why do you need to have sacrifices at all pointing towards the Messiah to save all of humanity? No, no, no, no, we gotta rewrite all that. It's all metaphysical.
Eric Huffman: Wow.
Melissa Dougherty: You know what I mean? It's all just this allegorical metaphorical thing. They were writing what they could understand at the time. We know much better now. It'slike this mixture rewrite. And the Bible is not the only place that has this truth. "Look at this, look at these other gospels, look at all this other stuff that the church is hiding and suppressing."
Again, it's secret knowledge. There's always a secret knowledge. There's always a secret, more esoteric message. And so, the resurrection was more complicated than it should have been. And the beauty is, is that it's just so simple: that God became a human being, died a death, had to because He's justice. He's not just love. There had to be a price paid. He traded places with us. And then He rose from the dead to prove that He conquered sin and proved that He was God. And He bodily ascended to the right hand of the Father. And it's like you have to make it where, okay, well, it was a spiritual ascent, it wasn't literal, all these Gnostic-ish kind of stuff.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, I mean, you helped me clarify. I think I said I was preaching Cosmic Christ at Easter. I did preach Cosmic Christ, which is the universalist Christ was in Buddha, Christ was in Krishna, whatever garbage. But I also was preaching Christ consciousness, now that you've clarified that for me, which is that it's us that rise up at Easter. It's the church, quote-unquote. I put bunny ears around that because I was using that word wrongly, too. But, again, getting Easter wrong is getting everything wrong from a Christian vantage point.
And so what are the most important differences between the biblically accurate Easter and the way many people today are looking at Easter? Just help us clarify that one more time and we'll talk about this new book you've written.
Melissa Dougherty: Well, first, in my opinion, I think it's the most important Christian holiday out of all of them. It's a Christian holiday celebrating the most pinnacle Christian belief of all of them. It's the resurrection of Jesus. And I think that that's kind of just, I don't know, maybe commercialized a little bit where we kind of lose that or we don't quite understand it.
Here's what I'll tell parents. Here's what I'll say. One of the best things I think that we can do is the traditions with our kids. We watch Pilgrim's Progress every year, the animated version. And I love it. I'm a robot. Okay, like I don't cry a lot. You know what I mean? But there's certain scenes in there that I'm like, "Man, that is so good." And I hope that that is instilled in my children as they grow older, baking and, you know, we do resurrection rolls and we read the Scriptures as we do it. Even though my kids are older, we still do that.
Eric Huffman: What about the secular traditions or pseudo-secular traditions of the bunny and the eggs and all that stuff?
Melissa Dougherty: This might be controversial, but have fun. I don't see... it depends on your convictions, okay? If you don't want to implement those things, then don't. Because some people really, really make it just hard. "This is the Christian holiday. This is the only thing we want to do. We don't want to implement the gifts." I mean, my girls wake up and they get chocolates. They get maybe a fun... They have the little eggs with the, what is it, like the resurrection story. And so you go and you find it. There's a little trinket inside and for each trinket it tells a part of the story.
Eric Huffman: Awesome.
Melissa Dougherty: I mean, there's ways you can really make it fun where you're not like going to feel like you're a big sinner at the end. It's like have fun with it. Make it your own and do what you're comfortable with.
Eric Huffman: It's about the heart behind it, right
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, definitely get chocolate. But that's the time of year where I'm like, "Okay, it's time to get some good Bible stuff. Let's put some Bible stuff here in the Easter basket," you know?
Eric Huffman: Yeah, exactly.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, like a book, a... what was it? The Screwtape Letters for my oldest. I'm like, "I can't force you to read this, but here you go," you know what I mean?
Eric Huffman: Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: Graphic novels.
Eric Huffman: Clearly, like, you have a passion for teaching the next generation the truth of the Gospel and in this case, the resurrection. Again, I was... I won't say shocked. I was a little surprised just that your newest project was a children's book. I just didn't see it coming because Happy Lies was so adult and profound. I don't mean adult-like, salacious, but like it was heady. But I was refreshed and pleasantly surprised to see this because it's so needed. And my favorite time as a dad was in the nighttime book-reading era when my kids were little, and I miss it because it was so wholesome and good.
It's hard to find really solid, theologically sound Christian books that kids want to read. And I read yours. Show it to us again, because I don't have a hard copy. I have a digital copy.
Melissa Dougherty: The Day That Made the Way.
Eric Huffman: The Day That Made the Way. Of all the topics, Melissa, that you could write, even write a children's book about, why did you zero in on the resurrection as a topic for a children's book?
Melissa Dougherty: Because it's the Gospel. It's the Gospel. Allegories, I think, and I say this as somebody who kind of looks at AI with great caution when it comes to art, when it comes to art specifically. And I say this as an artist. Music, poetry, story writing, all of these things are really what draws the human spirit into aligning with what's true, okay? And God is the Creator.
And I feel like whenever there's... I mean, you have the C.S. Lewises, you have the Tolkiens, you have these great storytellers, John Bunyan, and there's a reason why they're timeless. And an allegory, there's something about it that absolutely, I think, grips us and helps us remember it in a different way. I mean, Frodo, right? Sam's throwing Frodo on his back and crawling up Mordor, right? There's such a story there that we can tell and grasp. You know what I mean? It's an alignment with what's true about God in reality.
And so allegories, I find they're very good to do that, especially with children. So that's what you were saying. You're like, "Happy Lies was so heady." I'm like, "If you're a new believer," you know what I mean? This is the kind of stuff I'm like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Give me a children's Bible. I might actually understand the story better."
Eric Huffman: Sometimes the simplest stories are the most profound. You just peel away layer after layer. And that's what I got from your book. I've heard you talk about the urgency of it as well, the resurrection for kids, because I think it was you who said we might be like one generation away from Easter becoming entirely secular. What did you mean?
Melissa Dougherty: You're always one generation away.
Eric Huffman: What do you mean when you said that though about Easter specifically? What concerns you?
Melissa Dougherty: I have a double answer to this, because I'm not that concerned in a way, but I am. The reason why I'm not that concerned is I have such a... the Holy Spirit's not going anywhere. The Holy Spirit's not going anywhere. I mean, there was always a Jeremiah. There was always a prophet, even before the Holy Spirit was around. There was always a remnant, always somebody to represent God on Earth. I'm like, you know what? The truth will always be here. You can't snuff it out. It will always be here. It will always be louder than all the... there's one truth in these billions of lies that will always be here, and it will always be louder than the lies. And it will always live through. It will always sustain.
So a part of me is not concerned. But then the other part of me is like, "Okay, well, that doesn't mean that we stop teaching about these things to our children." And here's the big thing. This is probably my biggest concern: sending your kid to church and just thinking that the pastor and the youth pastor is just going to do all the work, and then we're surprised when our children leave, and they go out into the world. We've kind of kept them in this bubble and we've done what we thought Scripture said. You raise them up, you're doing all the things right and they go out in the world and then they lose their faith.
My concern is they don't know how that happened. I'm a parent and I know if I do everything right, I know that there's a level of control that I've got to let go of. I can't like, I guess, codependency in that world, right, where it's just like, I am completely responsible for your spirituality in a way. Like it's my job to give you these tools. "Don't be afraid to ask me hard questions. Come on, let me see what you got. Here's this hardcore atheist response that's actually really hard to answer. They have a good point here" And you're being honest about it, you know, not shying away from these really tough topics, making it age appropriate.
And then the resurrection, it's like the core Gospel message. Why do all these other religions have this message? What do they believe? And then actually bringing that into their spirituality and just teaching them. I think that there's a level of responsibility we have there but also a level of letting go of control, because they have their own choices to make, and trusting God.
Eric Huffman: Well, yeah. And the hardest part about teaching kids the resurrection, in my opinion, is why it was necessary in the first place. There would be no resurrection without the crucifixion, and there would be no crucifixion without our sin. And therein lies the rub, I think, for most parents, is teaching our kids about sin and the problem of sin because we all like to think our babies are little angels and we want them to think they're little angels.
The self-esteem movement has wreaked havoc on the Gospel and it's being taught in homes. What I loved about your book, I know it sounds like I'm just trumpeting it, and that's not why you're here, but I loved that you dealt with sin in the book. And people that read it will see how you dealt with it so creatively. But why do you think it's so hard for most or many parents, Christian parents, to teach their kids about why the resurrection and the crucifixion were necessary?
Melissa Dougherty: Maybe double, two answers to this. One, sometimes I don't... well, maybe three. One, maybe they have. Maybe this is like a big thing. They talk about it often. They are mindful of it, but maybe the kids don't understand. Maybe the kids don't care. Some of it is that, you have these kids that are like on fire for Jesus at like two, and then you have these really passive teenagers and they're like, "Oh, this again." And they just kind of drag themselves to church every week. "Do I have to be here?" It's like, "Yes, junior." It's like, "What do you do? What do you do with that, right?" So I hear you, okay? I see you. I hear you. I understand you're doing the best you can.
The second group is like, maybe they don't understand it themselves. Maybe they just think, "Okay, if I'm doing my job, I'm doing this," and it's like they get like this Gospel hangover is what I call it, where it's just, if you say it so many times, it has no meaning. It has no meaning anymore. And I don't think that they quite... maybe they don't quite understand exactly what the atonement is. Maybe they hear that word and they've had an atonement hangover. They're like, "I hear that word; I don't know what it means." Maybe they don't really quite understand the sacrifices of the Old Testament. They don't quite get what it means that Jesus had to die. And if they were tested and it was so unpopular to be a Christian and you really had to pay a price, you really had to hold onto it and cling to it because everybody's falling away, would you stay? Like, would you believe?
I think that's what ails us, especially in the last like six months, is that we are being tested. We're being tested. And this is constantly what happens. And you read about it in Scripture. But I have to say, it's just in this last year that I'm like, well, really since 2020, but since in this last year where it's just oh, oh, a lot of those scriptures I see more in 4K, like 2 Timothy, running the race, people who have fallen away, people who have compromised, all in the name of Jesus, right? And you're like, "Well, where do you stand? Who do you say Jesus is?" And it's just so interesting to see how people react to that.
And then the third group, I think that they struggle overall, maybe with what they believe. They don't quite know exactly how to explain it themselves, more like the second group in that way. But I think the remedy to this is just really quite simple. And I think we're really apathetic. I think this is why God uses pain. I really do. I think that He provokes us to expose us. That's kind of the way I put it. There's a lot of stuff that can happen to get us up. Like, "Get up, you sluggard," right? The Proverbs talk about this. And unless you have a reason to get up and fight for what you believe, you don't know what you believe until you have to fight for it. And then you think, "Okay, is this worth it?"
And so I think that there's an apathy that we kind of have to fight against. We go to church every year, but I think for kids, it's really important for them to understand that this isn't just about... it's about spiritual darkness. This was the main core, if you read the book, this was the main core idea about light. It's not just about oh, spiritual light. No, Jesus is the Light and you're afraid of it. They say, "Don't be afraid of the dark." No, you're afraid of the Light. You're afraid of the Light. You don't want to go towards it because you're afraid your deeds will be exposed.
What does that look like to you? It's John 3:16-21. That this is the verdict: that Light has come into the world, but people didn't come to the Light because they loved their darkness. People love their darkness. We think that we are just, you know, good with Jesus. The world thinks that they are living in this light. That's the allegory. That's what it's saying is that we're all covered in this grime, so to speak, this darkness, and here comes this Light, and you're like, "What is this? I don't know what this is. I don't want to be a part of this."
Eric Huffman: Scared of it.
Melissa Dougherty: And that's the whole point, yeah, is that that's the Light that's going to cleanse you. So that's the message that I want people to hear. I don't think this is just for kids. I do think it's for adults as well.
Eric Huffman: Oh, 100 %.
Melissa Dougherty: My hope is that adults will read this and they're like, "Oh." And I actually end it with that Scripture of John 3 kind of hoping to get that nail home for people.
Eric Huffman: Well, I just think we have a core practice at our church. We have three core practices, but one of them is to challenge comfort. I think comfort is often what leads to being afraid of the Light because we get comfortable in darkness. And what happens in the darkness is usually, well, to put it in a word, sin. And going back to the dilemma of parenting and talking to our kids about sin, I think the best way to do that is to, as much as is appropriate, confess our sins and repent of our sins in front of our kids. And when we lose our temper, when we didn't say a nice thing or said a mean thing to their mom or whatever—I'm totally hypothetical, I never do that—when we sin, we should outwardly, in front of our families, confess and repent so that we send the message to our kids that sin is a real problem, so that we can explain to them why Jesus came and died on a cross and why the Father looked at the Son on the cross and saw our sin there instead of Him. And why when we put our faith in Him, the Father looks at us and sees His righteousness on us.
You know, it's the most beautiful story. And all of our books and movies, the favorites, like you mentioned Lord of the Rings and all the others, that people love the most, they're based on the Gospel narrative because it is the best, the most perfect story ever told. But we have to tell the whole thing or it doesn't make sense. And it starts with, you know, sin.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. There's a secret in contentment where Paul... like we're talking about comfort and all the things. Before you asked me a question about, you know, people are like, "Oh, but I'm happy." And that's really what it is, is that when you follow Christ, whenever you have found Him, there's a fulfillment there, but there's also a contentment in that. And so that's really what I think people ought to aim for when it comes to this, is the Gospel brings that. It brings this no matter what you're going through, whether you're rich, you're poor, you're healthy, you're sick. I have found, this is Paul saying this in Philippians 4, "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength." It's contentment. And I love that. I kind of wanted to add to that.
Eric Huffman: Way better than the world's offer of happiness, as we talked about earlier.
Melissa Dougherty: Totally.
Eric Huffman: Final question, we're out of time, but one last question is, again, about the resurrection. I do think another reason why parents might shy away from teaching their kids the explicit Gospel and the resurrection is because it is exclusive. If Jesus physically rose from the grave, then He is unique compared to other religions and worldviews. And we are living in this pluralistic society where parents might be tempted to teach their kids or train them up to go along in order to get along and not offend others by making exclusive truth claims like Christianity does. What would you say to somebody in that mindset as far as Easter goes? And what advice would you give to parents who might be stuck in that kind of polite place, you know, as they raise their kids to be polite kids instead of truthful ones?
Melissa Dougherty: Well, first, I wouldn't say that we're the ones making that claim. We're submitting to that. We read that in Scripture. Jesus is saying that He is the only way. That's something He said. And I think it's also really important to point out there was no other way. There is no other way. And to pay a penalty that we can't pay.
I mean, when Jesus died, it's very significant to know that the temple, the curtain in the temple split from top to bottom. That signified something very, very powerful that humanity is no longer... you're no longer separated from God. Which is by the way, what Sunder means. Sunder means... the Sunder's are the little creatures that are separated. So that's kind of like the whole point of that, right? And so it's the exclusivity of Jesus, I mean, it makes us uncomfortable, but we have to understand why that is. Like, why is Jesus the only way?
And then you have to play that movie forward. What if He's not? Okay, let's play that forward. Let's just do a thought exercise for just a second. Let's pretend for a second that your Muslim friend, what they believe is true too, that they can get to heaven through submitting to Allah. That means you got to go and accept what they believe. Okay, well, the Buddhist over here and the Hindu, okay, what they believe is true too. All right. Well, okay, this guy over here, you know, he believes, in a secular humanist way, that he can kind of live however he wants, do whatever he wants, believe whatever he wants, hurt whoever he wants, he's good to go to, right? Because that's just what he believes, because there's many, many ways, and that's his way.
If you boil it down to its logical conclusion, it's that it undermines, completely undoes the entire Christian perspective. Is that, okay, then humans are basically good, we don't need the cross, Jesus died for nothing, and that means that we can't really trust what the Bible says about Him. We can take truths here or there and that all these universalists they're basically right. And that you're telling the gospel bears no witness at all because it's empty, because there's many ways to God. Oh, well. It's like if you play that movie forward, it's just like, okay... The thing is though, is that if that's true and we all just live our truths and all go to heaven and that's not heaven, that's here.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, we're already there.
Melissa Dougherty: That's here. There's no justice, that's the other thing. Like play that movie forward, really play that forward. There would be no justice at all. There would be no-
Eric Huffman: Logic.
Melissa Dougherty: All the stuff that's happened to you, all the lies that's been told. Well, hey, there's many ways to God. There's no repentance. Jesus, He's over here calling people to die to themselves, to follow Him, that He's the way, the truth and the life, that God is real, that when you repent and give your life to Him, the Holy Spirit comes and lives with you and you have this joy, you have this, you have all these wonderful things, which is a much better story than just recreating another version of earth in some other spiritual realm. You know what I mean?
Eric Huffman: I do, I do. I love how you just applied in the last five minutes, you just applied your own advice. I asked you earlier, what advice would you give to somebody who's trying to get out of that New Thought world? And you said apply critical thinking, logic, reason play the movie forward is another way of saying that.
Melissa, I just think you have such a unique story and rare testimony. And I can't help thinking again, again, every time I read your stuff and hear from you that God has positioned you particularly for such a time as this. And not to be overly dramatic about it, I really feel that way about your ministry. Everybody that's watching, I think-
Melissa Dougherty: I think He's positioned a lot of us like that.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, probably. I'm so proud of Him and what He's done in your life and proud of you and pray you keep going. But if our viewers haven't checked out Happy Lives yet, I hope they will, tell us about the new book, when it comes out and where people can find it.
Melissa Dougherty: Sure. The Day That Made the Way, you can get it at madetheway.com. Very, very easy. And once again, if you go there, there's three book bundles. You can get the book and plush together. You can get the book and plush free when you subscribe to the Brave Book Club.
Eric Huffman: Awesome.
Melissa Dougherty: And then you can get all those books I was talking about before, biblically based children's books at your home every month. I highly recommend the plush. They are limited. There's only 1,400. I love this little plush. He just wants a sandwich. I love him so much. His little face, his squishy face. Madetheway.com. I really hope that it helps parents. I really hope that it's one of those things that kind of gets handed off to the next generation.
Melissa Dougherty: My kids are too big for it now, I think, but I can't wait to read it with my grandkids maybe one day. And it really touched me personally, and I know a lot of people will be impacted by it. So thank you again for all your work.
Melissa Dougherty: I'm so glad. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Eric Huffman: Melissa, thanks for joining us today on Maybe God, and encourage all of our viewers to chime in in the comments and let us know what you think. Thanks, Melissa.
Melissa Dougherty: Thank you.