April 27, 2023

What's After Unbelievable? with Justin and Lucy Brierley

Inside This Episode

Listen up Unbelievable? fans! For the first time, author and broadcaster Justin Brierley and his wife, Reverend Lucy Brierley, sit down together from their home in the U.K. for a rare conversation on why Justin left the Unbelievable? show after 17 amazing years, how his role in their local church has informed his work, and how they’ve both witnessed the conversations surrounding Christianity shifting in big ways.

The Maybe God team is thrilled to announce that Justin will be guest hosting a series of fascinating conversations for Maybe God starting in May!

Follow Justin’s latest work: www.instagram.com/justin.brierley

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Eric Huffman: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Maybe God Podcast. I just want to go ahead and jump right in today because we have two very special guests all the way from across the pond. You might remember Justin Brierley. If you don't already know him for his amazing work on the UK-based podcast called Unbelievable?, you may recognize him from a recent episode of Maybe God.

He is a legend in the world of Christian radio and podcasting. He spent 17 years moderating a weekly show where some of the brightest minds in the world went head-to-head on topics ranging from Christianity and atheism to science and sexuality.

Well, today we're also joined by Justin's wife, Rev. Lucy Brierley, who, like Justin, studied theology at Oxford University. Today, Lucy is the minister of the United Reformed Church in Woking, England. Together they have four children, Noah, Grace, Jeremy, and Toby. So welcome Lucy and Justin to Maybe God. I'm so glad you're here.

Justin Brierley: Thank you very much.

Lucy Brierley: Thank you.

Justin Brierley: It's fabulous to be here.

Eric Huffman: Thank you both. We were just chatting before we went live about the fact I've seen a lot of interviews obviously that Justin has conducted. But the two of you together, this is a very special treat.

Justin Brierley: Yeah, it's not very often. I mean, you'll see us both in church most Sundays if you watch our live stream, but we rarely ever do any interviews like this together. So in fact, it's the first time I can really remember ever doing an interview together.

Lucy Brierley: I don't think we've ever done anything quite like this before.

Eric Huffman: Well, I'm honored and very excited. Let's kind of start with a question along those lines. Justin, many of us and our listeners know you as a very successful broadcaster, but you're also a preacher's husband. I would like to know a little bit about that side of your life.

Justin Brierley: Yeah. Well, this is the part that most people don't know so much. I'm very involved in our local church. So I actually help to lead the musical worship most Sundays—I play guitar. And Lucy is an amazing preacher, so I get to, you know, sit under her ministry. And yeah, it's great. I mean, the good news is because, I think, inevitably being the husband of a minister is more rare than being the wife of a minister, there's not the expectations that maybe come with that in more current kind of traditional settings. So I don't know if it's true where you come from, Eric. But very often the minister's wife, you know, often assumes a certain number of roles in the church.

Eric Huffman: Oh, free labor.

Justin Brierley: I think in our situation there was no expectation of exactly what I would be doing in the church. So it's been fun. I love getting involved with our local church. I also help out with the youth work and other bits and pieces. So it's kind of a team effort in many ways.

Eric Huffman: Well, that's great. So Lucy, how long have you been leading that church in Woking?

Lucy Brierley: So I'm in my, gosh, 18th year now.

Eric Huffman: Wow. Tell us about your call to ministry.

Lucy Brierley: Well, I grew up in the denomination that I'm in. It's called the United Reformed Church. It's a union of the Presbyterian Church and the Congregational Church here in England. That was the tradition I grew up in, and I went to church with my family. And around the age of five, I said to my mom, "God wants me to be a minister when I grow up." And she said, "Oh, that's nice, dear," you know, but she didn't take it very seriously at that age. It was a cool that just stayed on my heart. It was like it was just kind of imprinted on my heart from the youngest age. I just knew that was what God had in store for me. And so it was, and so I followed.

Eric Huffman: Wow That is extraordinarily young. Do you remember seeing maybe preachers you looked up to, especially like women in ministry that you looked up to that might have inspired your sense of calling?

Lucy Brierley: Absolutely. When I was a child of that age, the minister in our church on the south coast here in the UK was an American woman. I don't have many memories of her now. But yes, she must have inspired me and also made me think that, you know, it's a fine thing for a woman to do. And it took me a lot of years to realize that there are huge swathes of the church that haven't caught up with that yet. For me as a child, it was a really normal, natural experience.

Eric Huffman: Right growing up Methodist, it was normal for me too. I confess still to this day when I come across Christians that I agree on everything else with and then we disagree on that one point about women in ministry, it can be arresting. It's like something I don't realize that people grapple with to the extent that they do. What kind of a preacher's husband has Justin been from your vantage point?

Lucy Brierley: For Justin and I, it's always been a team endeavor. I mean, I think this is the thing that probably isn't known about Justin with his really public persona, but his heart is in the local church. And for our family, it's the foundation of our lives. It's where we're rooted. So Justin has his own ministries, and there's so many exciting things that he gets up to, but week on week we're together in the local church. So a lot of the thinking and planning and theological reflecting that I do, you know, we do together at home because we can and because we enjoy it. So it's been a real team journey.

Justin Brierley: Definitely. For me, it's been really good to have that experience of local pastoral ministry being embedded in a place. Because as you can imagine, Eric, I'm sure you're familiar with this, apologetics can become quite a cerebral abstract, you know, floating halfway above the ground kind of enterprise. But when you are in that local context just with people's everyday concerns, Christians on the ground, it just helps to ground it and make it real. It's been a really helpful thing in just making sure that I don't sort of float off too much into some kind of abstract realm and keep it properly grounded, you know.

Eric Huffman: Right. People have said to me in the past like they don't understand why there are so many couples that are in ministry together. To some people that are really skeptical about the church, it can look like some kind of a family business of some sort. And that's maybe like a small part of what it amounts to. But I think a lot of couples end up in various kinds of ministry together because Christianity and Christian ministry in particular, is not a job, it's not a vocation you can just leave at the office. It's all-encompassing, it's a lifestyle.

And I think that's why a lot of couples... I don't really understand how some... I know it happens and I don't mean to delegitimize it at all, but I don't know how it's possible to be in ministry professionally and not have a spouse that's in it with you because of how all-encompassing it can be. And my wife and I have experienced that. I joke about our pillow talk being all about theological reflection and people are underwhelmed by that. But that's reality. You know, 90% of the time is what we talk about.

Justin Brierley: The challenge comes when you get to that point where you're like, you've talked about the church, you've talked about the kids, and you're like, What else is there to talk about now, you know? It becomes the topic of every conversation. So that can be the challenge.

Eric Huffman: That's right. That's exactly what my wife and I talk about. So, you spoke about the practical theology component of being in real life with people. How else has that parish ministry with Lucy affected or infused your work at Unbelievable? over the 17 years you had there?

Justin Brierley: I mean, it's hard to encapsulate it because there are so many ways is the same, which just being on the ground in those situations really does make a difference. I think it's really helpful when you get feedback from people in the congregation who have listened to the show, who are interacting with you. Those don't tend to be the kind of hardboiled apologetics enthusiasts. They're just the kind of regular Christians in the pew. And that's really good feedback because you'll kind of get... you understand how it lands with people in that way. So there's that aspect of it.

And, you know, over the years, elements of the apologetics ministry that I've done have found their way into Lucy's sermons into certain teaching series. We just did, actually, quite recently a whole sort of series, which was really looking at the foundations of Christian faith and the arguments for it. And it was really helpful in those instances for me to be able to share some of the preaching with Lucy.

We've done big questions series, where we've invited the congregation themselves to ask questions, ask their hard questions. We had a couple of seasons where we had a big questions box out in the main entrance of the church, anyone, whether they're part of the church or not, could put their question in. And we just tried to tackle those as we went through over several weeks. And that was great fun.

For me, as I've seen, the way in which being open about people's questions and helping them to think through these things has really opened up faith for them. I think we've realized we need to do more of that in our churches, not just make it a thing on a podcast, but actually make room for those questions and have genuine conversations about where people are at in the church as well. So I'd say that's a big way in which the two ministries have overlapped.

Eric Huffman: Amen.

Lucy Brierley: It's interesting, actually, because I think it's fair to say that Justin has always been more involved in my work than I have in his. And as Justin said earlier, Unbelievable? has dealt with things on quite a high cerebral level and I'm very busy day in day out dealing with things on the kind of ground level. And it's been really interesting to reflect between ourselves about the interplay there.

So, for example, Justin could be hosting a conversation about the problem of evil, problem of suffering in the world, and then—I'm talking about on a kind of philosophical level—and then I'm on the ground with people holding their hands during their suffering or beside their bedside. So we often have had conversations over the years about where the two come together and in what context is the kind of high-level conversation helpful and when is it actually unhelpful, and when do people just need you to be present and beside them and to be God's presence in their midst in their time of pain and suffering. So I think that's one particular example that springs to mind.

Justin Brierley: And kind of going on with that, I mean, I'm gonna sing Lucy's praises for a moment here, Eric, because Lucy is not only an amazing preacher, an amazing worship leader. She's also one of the most pastorally-hearted people you could ever meet. So what I have witnessed is someone who, on a day-to-day and week-to-week basis, just cares for everyone around her.

And what I've realized is that you can do all the, as much brilliant theology and apologetics as you like, but if you can't sort of make that make a difference in someone's life, then you kind of you're dealing with ideas at the end of the day. And actually, there's been so many occasions when I've seen Lucy deal with people in this way, where she just brings wholeness and healing and a sense of, you know, completion or help someone on a journey where they're going through something. And I just stand in awe, because I may have a wonderful apologetic answer to that person, but I cannot do what Lucy does. She has this amazing gift for pastoral ministry.

It reminds me that actually, that's where Christian ministry happens at the end of the day. It's wonderful to get into people's homes and ears and everything through podcasts and video and everything. But actually, it's in community that you really make a real difference. And all of that stuff that goes on around it in terms of broadcast ministry, that can be wonderful in terms of helping to resource people and so on. But if it doesn't come ultimately down to that local communal level where Jesus is present in the lives and the through the spirit of people, then you're not really doing church, you're not really doing Christianity.

Eric Huffman: Right.

Lucy Brierley: And then I would add, if I may-

Eric Huffman: Please.

Lucy Brierley: So all of that is true in the sense that, you know, you have to work on both levels to help people. But at the same time, I encounter people often on the frontline of ministry who might describe themselves as head rather than heart people. And indeed some of the new effects that we're seeing wander into our churches, particularly some of the younger ones, they do have lots of questions.

So you're asking, where does Justin's work kind of interplay with mine or help mine? To have a resource like Justin at my fingertips say, "This would be a great person for you to go out for a drink with, Justin. This person's got a really deep question. They're a real head person, they really want to kind of go deep on these questions." That's not necessarily my speciality, but it is his. So, you know, we feel really blessed to have each other.

Eric Huffman: Wow. Wow, that's amazing. I wonder how it works at home, though, just as an aside, like when you Lucy you're in an argument with your teenage child and it's heated, does Justin like play the referee like he did with the Unbelievable? Podcast? "Well, what she's saying is this?"

Lucy Brierley: Yes. The truth about Justin is that he is the calmest most patient person I've ever met, perhaps in a bit of contrast to myself. So it's hard to stress Justin out. I think that's why it's been so good at hosting these debates all these years. He's not rattled easily.

Eric Huffman: So Justin, recently you had me and someone at my church named Grace on the Unbelievable? show. And right after we recorded that show, you shared with us that you had some big news coming down the pike. And you couldn't talk publicly about it at that point, but you told us sort of what was coming. Are you ready now to tell our listeners what exactly that news is?

Justin Brierley: Yes. Yes. It has been public knowledge for a little while now, Eric, though, you were one of the first people to know about it at the time. I have moved on from the Unbelievable? show after 17 and a half years of hosting it, which has been an amazing, amazing journey. But the time came. It was probably at some point last year where I've been having feelings that maybe the time has come to be able to lay that down and to move into some fresh forms of ministry. Very much still in the whole area of cultural apologetics and making the case for faith but maybe doing it in some new ways.

And so yeah, that's been the big shift in our life, the big transition. At the time of recording, it's still very fresh. I officially kind of announced everything actually on Easter weekend. So it was an interesting time to do it, obviously a time of new beginnings Easter, and I was able to let people know that my final show was going to be airing soon and that I would be stepping out into some new shows, some new projects, and that kind of thing.

So it's been an exciting, daunting, sort of bittersweet time letting go of something that has very much been like my baby, now a 17-year-old baby. Overall, though, there's been an immense sense of peace and that this really is the right thing. There were all kinds of, I don't know, God-incidences that just seemed to confirm actually this is the right time to be saying thank you for the past but moving into a bit of a different ministry in the future.

Eric Huffman: That's great. I'm glad you've got a sense of peace about it. Although I'm sure there were plenty of sleepless nights. It's just so hard to leave behind something that you have poured your heart and soul into.

Justin Brierley: It is. I was gonna say the final show was a very, as I say, kind of bittersweet moment because we kind of looked back on 17-plus years of doing the show. And there were so many amazing memories that we kind of dug out of the archives and things to look back on. So it was very emotional.

And the other thing is actually, since making that public announcement, I've just been flooded with messages from people getting in touch, many who I know, many who I don't know. I've just been overwhelmed by the number of people who have said, "Your show made such a difference in my life when I was going through this." You know, people who I'd never heard of who said, "Your show was part of my story of becoming a Christian." And it's just been absolutely humbling and wonderful to sort of suddenly have this influx of all these stories of people who were impacted by the show. And makes it, yeah, kind of a real sense of wow I want to leave that in good hands and make sure that continues to do what it will do. But who knows what the future will hold? And I hope that future ministry will be just as impactful going forward.

Eric Huffman: Well, I hope that as well. And I hope you have received loud and clear the message from your listeners because sometimes we take for granted the shows and people that really uplift us, and do so on a regular basis for a long period of time. And it's sometimes like we wait until the funeral to say the nice things about a person. I feel like with your show a little

Justin Brierley: I know exactly what you mean.

Eric Huffman: Yeah, yeah. Once you're you told us that, Grace and I and Julie, we sat in the studio just kind of staring at each other because it felt like something was dying that we loved because your show really has impacted us personally. You know, I've heard people say things like, you know, the great thing about that show is that it was a Christian show clearly but it was okay if you had a non-Christian or an atheist or someone come in and win the argument.

In a vacuum that might look like a loss for the kingdom. But the fact that we're having those kinds of conversations, even when our side of the argument doesn't come out on top is such a grace in this world that it is so transcendent in a way. Unexpected I guess. It's surprising to people. Because everybody just... no one's surprised by media anymore. You know, everybody just knows what to expect from whatever media outlets they choose to listen to. And yours is different. And for 17 years your voice was unique. But yeah, we're morning that in a way.

Justin Brierley: It's not like I've died, Eric.

Eric Huffman: I know. I know. Now thinking, this morning I was like, Just today, the news broke Tucker Carlson is off of Fox News, Don Lemon's off CNN, and Justin Brierley is off Unbelievable?. What's the world come to? But you know, things continue to move. And both of you really continue to move forward in exciting ways together.

You're going to be talking about, I hope, throughout our conversation, some of the things you have on the horizon. One of those things, thank God, and something we dreamed about was having you sort of on a temporary basis join forces with our team at Maybe God for a series of conversations on our podcast. So we're so excited about that and how you're going to be interviewing some very special guests. What can you tell us about what's on the horizon in that regard?

Justin Brierley: Well, I'm thrilled to have been invited to do some guest hosting for the Maybe God Podcast. When I first ran into you which was actually by Grace who obviously came on the show with us a few months back, I just immediately as soon as I started listening to the Maybe God Podcasts I was like, "These are my people. This feels like the kind of thing that, you know, I'd love to do myself. So when the invitation came to do some guest hosting, I absolutely went for it.

I'm really looking forward to hosting some conversations. I mean, the plan is that we're going to actually start, I believe, the next thing on the horizon, Eric is actually me moderating a conversation between you and Bart Campolo. And if you go right back in your own archives, longtime listeners may remember that he was one of the first people you interviewed on the Maybe Podcast. But himself being an atheist, son of famous preacher, Tony Campolo of course but himself having lost his faith. I've had him in conversation with Sean McDowell on the Unbelievable? show in the past. But I remember you shared with me that you didn't feel like you did the best job that you could have, Eric, in that conversation. So we're gonna give you an opportunity to redeem yourself and for a round two. So we'll see how that goes.

Eric Huffman: Oh, man. I can't tell you how many times I have regretted and wanted to redo that conversation with Bart. It was my very first recording of an interview for the Maybe God podcast. I don't know what I thought my role was at that point in time, you know. I had never podcasted, I had never really interviewed anyone officially. I thought that I was supposed to come in and just prove everything he said wrong and, you know, just lay waste to his whole worldview for all the world to see. And I was so naive.

And what I really wanted to do is have a conversation with him in which I sort of extend an apology of sorts. I'm not even sure he remembers. He's had so many interviews, and he's had a lot going on. But just sort of extend an olive branch and try and have a better conversation with him. I want to know more about why he has come to believe what he believes and not so much about, you know, why he doesn't believe in Christianity. I want to know why he does believe what he believes. And so to the extent you can help us get there, I would greatly appreciate that resolution to this year's long struggle of mine.

Justin Brierley: We'll give it a round two. I'm looking forward to it because I'm never happier than when I'm in the middle of two people moderating those kinds of conversations. So I think it's gonna be great fun.

Eric Huffman: Wow, I can't wait. Thank you for agreeing to do that. Justin, I know you have a copy or an advanced copy of your upcoming book with you. Would you mind telling us just what the title of the book is and when we expect it?

Justin Brierley: Yeah. I'm really excited about this one. It's The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God: Why New Atheism Grew Old and Secular Thinkers Are Considering Christianity. It doesn't officially get published till September. But this one's going to really be telling, as I say, that story of the way in which I think the conversation has changed and the way in which the church can be ready to respond to the new questions people are asking too.

The genesis of this book was sparked when I was having a conversation, I was hosting a conversation between N.T. Wright who's well-known sort of British theologian and Bible scholar, and Douglas Murray, who's a well-known journalist here in the UK. He describes himself as a Christian atheist because he lost his faith in his sort of early 20s but he still feels very drawn by the Christian story.

And we referenced... there's a famous poem by the Victorian poet Matthew Arnold called Dover Beach, which has this well-worn line about the melancholy long withdrawing roar of the sea of faith, this idea that faith had was going out in his age. And 150 years later that couldn't be more true in the West. And one of the things Douglas said in that conversation was, "Well, the thing about tides is they do come back in again." And it just sparked in me a thought that...

Douglas himself was talking about the fact that he was surprised at the way some of his friends, you know, very intelligent people were converting to Christianity. And he said, you know, it's not everyone, but there is a significant number who suddenly seemed to be drawn back to this ancient faith. And that was really what set me down the path of writing this book because I felt that I was also seeing stories of people coming back to faith people, you weren't expecting, people who had taken completely by surprise.

And I think we are possibly at a tipping point, Eric, where the story of materialism of atheism, it has kind of run its course and people cannot be fed by that story for much longer. And I think a lot of the problems we're seeing in our culture because that story just is no longer doing it for people. And at some point, it could be that the tide is due to come back in. The Christian story is there under the surface in so many ways.

I'm excited to see what the reception is for the book. This is kind of a first. I haven't told anyone this publicly, but I'm hoping as well to create a new podcast documentary series that will complement the book, which will hopefully kind of be an opportunity for me to have, you know, put out in a kind of documentary podcast form some of these stories, some of the story of the way that I think the new Atheism came and went, and some of these really interesting new secular thinkers who are asking big questions about whether we can live without the Christian story.

So my hope is that actually we can move, I guess, up sort of along from those debates about does God exist. Because I think the questions we are actually asking now is how do we live in this culture? Given we live in a post-Christian world, how do we find meaning, purpose? Is there any value to human beings? Or are we all going to become, I don't know, AI-driven algorithms or something, you know, the latest headlines?

So I think there's a lot for the church to do in this area. The way I was talking about it to a friend just earlier today was that I think, for me, the conversations are moved from showing that Christianity is true to making people want it to be true again. Because I think we have to actually appeal to people's imagination to their deeper instincts about the way life is. You can give someone a great philosophical argument for God. But if they don't want what's on offer, if they don't like the way that Christians look or that kind of thing, they can always reach for another intellectual objection to it. But if you can help someone to see why they would want this to be true, why this would make a difference to their world, to the world at large, why this would fulfill everything they've been longing for, then I think you can have a different kind of conversation. I feel like that's the conversation we're moving into.

Whenever I see someone as an adult convert to Christianity, and I tell a few of those stories in the book, it's very rarely just an intellectual process. It's because something's shifted in their mind where they really want this story to be true the way that reality is. So it's always going to be both of those things—the head and the heart coming together in that way.

Eric Huffman: Right. What is it specifically about Christianity that is unique or outstanding in terms of what people want to be true or to be real. Like what is so enchanting about the Christian story compared to other worldviews?

Justin Brierley: I think there's a famous anecdote about C. S. Lewis walking into a meeting in Oxford of people discussing in a sort of interreligious discussion what marked out Christianity from all the other faiths. And he went in and said, "Well, that's easy. It's grace." And I think that's what we need in our culture, actually. We need grace. I think so many people are actually drowning under the weight of the expectations that the world is putting them under. I see that in young people, you know, who are kind of confused and just loaded with expectations from the culture around them.

And yet, we live in this very unforgiving, ungracious culture. And Christianity reminds you of how bad you are. But it also reminds you how good God is because He's accepted you exactly as you are and stood in your place for you. That may seem like a simple message, but my goodness, it changes people's lives. And I just feel like, you know, people need to hear that again. Because it doesn't exist in any other... Every other religious worldview, whether it's religious or non-religious, is basically about us trying to make ourselves better in one way or another. It's about moral improvement.

And obviously, the Christian story is about God reaching down to us. It's the opposite way around. So for me, that's always going to be at the center of it, that we cannot save ourselves. And the Christian story is the one story where we really have a God who came to save us.

Eric Huffman: That's beautiful, and I agree, one of the most beautiful things about Christianity. So what about in the local church setting, Lucy? How are you seeing the conversation shift in terms of people, not your all-in believers necessarily, but people that are sort of on the fringe of faith and what they were looking for 20 years ago versus what they might be looking for today?

Lucy Brierley: I think the key thing is does the church have any relevance for people. For huge swathes of our community, they wouldn't have any reason to think church had any relevance at all for them. So, for us here in our local context, the key has been welcomed. It's back to the grace thing as well. It's about showing people that they are accepted and welcomed and wanted and loved and treasured simply for who they are. And it's a message that we affirm very much in our church. We have a real ministry of welcome. And it's so simple.

And it wasn't some kind of evangelistic principle that we teased out at any point and put loads of money into. We just knew that God had placed on our heart that just this mission of welcome, of welcome. And we thought about some really simple things that we could do to make our church physically but also us as a community inviting and easy for people to wander through the doors or easy for people to have conversations with us.

We have this ministry where we just give out cups of coffee to people wandering by on their way to the station to work or whatever, kids on the way to school. And it's just a gift of grace. You know, no strings attached. Here you go. We just want to meet you. We just want to meet the people in our community. We just want to show that the church is alive." And simple, simple things like that bear fruit.

We've had people who've, as a direct result of that and all sorts of other things, have turned to us and said, "You know, I have need, something's happened in my life, can you help me?" And then they begin to see this grace freely given, this acceptance, this love. That they don't have to change in any way before they can come through the doors before they can be accepted by God and be welcome in the church community.

Justin Brierley: I would also say just coming back on the technology thing, that in a more digitally connected world, I think loneliness is going to be an increasing problem. Because actually, there are so many people now who simply don't really have any human contact. We're made to have human contact. That is just the way we are designed. And to that extent, I think Church may actually in a funny way become one of those last places where you can have genuine human community.

And that I think is really important. We need to be places where we bring our whole messy selves into communion with other people. And church is still one of the places you can do that and where hopefully if it's been done well that people can genuinely feel part of a family, even when they're very different from each other.

Again, we need that in our world. We're kind of all been driven into these sort of bubbles and silos, you know, by the algorithms where... But church needs to be a place where we find that unit unity and diversity and where you will see, you know, a toddler next to the 90-year-old. That's what I love. When I look across our church congregation, it's seeing just that wonderful sense, that this is God's messy, strange, diverse, but beautiful family as we gather together.

Eric Huffman: It's lovely and it's what the church should be. It's just such an incredible time to be alive and to be leading the church. And I'm grateful that you two are doing just that. I just pray that you will keep going because God has, I believe prepared and positioned you both for exactly this moment you're in and for where he's about to take you and your ministries.

I'm really excited too, just on a selfish way, for what your contributions to the Maybe God podcasts are going to be over the next several months. So I'm really, really excited about that and everything that is in store for you guys and your family. It's an honor to have this conversation with both of you today. And I guess I'll talk to you again soon whenever we sit down with Bart Campolo to make right what went wrong years ago.

Justin Brierley: We'll see what round two brings, Eric.

Eric Huffman: Thank y'all for joining us on the Maybe God Podcast today, and we hope to have you back again soon.

Justin Brierley: Thank you so much.

Lucy Brierley: Thank you.

Announcer: This episode of Maybe God was produced by Julie Mirlicourtois and Eric and Geovanna Huffman. Our editor is Justin Mayer and the director of all of our full-length YouTube videos is Mark Calver. Our social media team is Kat Brough and Justin Keller. For more information about Maybe God and to sign up for exclusive updates on our content, head to maybegodpod.com today. And don't forget to follow and engage with us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. Thanks for listening, everyone.