Cliffe and Stuart Knechtle Reveal the Strongest Argument for God
Inside This Episode
Millions have watched Cliffe and Stuart Knechtle answer tough questions about God on college campuses. But who are they when the cameras stop rolling? In this episode of Maybe God, Eric Huffman sits down with the father-son duo behind some of the internet's most-watched faith conversations. Beyond the viral debates, they discuss how they think about doubt, evidence, truth, love, and the intellectual case for Christianity—while also sharing stories about their family, ministry, and what it's really like engaging skeptics every day.
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Transcript
Eric Huffman: I've never heard Christian apologists say, "I don't know," as much as you guys say, "I don't know." I wonder why you do that.
Cliffe Knechtle: So I find that the answer "I do not know," first of all, is honest. If anybody thinks they've got all the answers to all the difficult questions, they're an arrogant twit.
[Audio Clip Start]
Cliffe Knechtle: The universe has a beginning, therefore, the universe has a cause.
Man 1: It doesn't show anything.
Man 2: Go to your history. They said that there has to be a mind behind it all.
Cliffe Knechtle: Never once have I ever seen life come from non-life.
Woman: I don't think you're going to change anybody's mind. This is entertaining.
Cliffe Knechtle: Ultimately, we do not change anybody's mind. It is God.
[Audio Clip End]
Cliffe Knechtle: You can talk all day long about how there's not enough evidence for Christ, and I can respect you intellectually and say, "Okay, there's not enough evidence. Now tell me, what are you living for? And how has X amount of evidence been met by this option to Christ?" And the answers, Eric, that I get to those two questions are embarrassing.
Eric Huffman: How do you deal with students and their questions about judgment and heaven and hell?
Stuart Knechtle: You and I go to McDonald's, and somebody comes in and starts spraying bullets, kills a few people, and I walk up to the person and say, "Oh, wow, good shot. Let's get a coffee real quick." Tremendous injustice.
Eric Huffman: I think everybody agrees the mass shooter or the abusive husband deserves what's coming for him in terms of judgment and justice, but what about the child born in a remote village, raised Muslim, spends their whole life worshiping Allah? Is that person as deserving of eternal judgment and hellfire as the mass shooter is?
[00:01:25] <music>
Eric Huffman: Okay, well, I'm really excited for today's conversation. I have spent countless hours watching this father-son duo take on tough questions from college students on campuses across the country, and few people do it with as much clarity and grace as they do. So Stuart and Cliffe Knechtle, welcome to Maybe God.
Cliffe Knechtle: Thank you so much, Eric.
Stuart Knechtle: Thanks, Eric.
Eric Huffman: It's an honor to have you guys. Millions of people have watched your viral videos debating skeptics and college students, but I'd like to get to know you guys on a personal level a little better and let our audience get to know you as well and explore that father-son dynamic behind the scenes a little. So before we get into the substance of our talk today, let me play a little game, okay?
Here's how the game is going to work. I'm going to ask a series of rapid-fire questions, and all you have to do is say out loud the name of the person who best fits the description. So it's either Stuart or it's Cliffe, okay? And I want you to say it as much as possible at the same time. Does that make sense?
Stuart Knechtle: Oh, yeah.
Eric Huffman: Okay. Here we go. Question number one. Who's more likely to accidentally start a debate at family dinner?
Cliffe Knechtle: Stuart.
Stuart Knechtle: Yeah, yeah. Tough topic.
Eric Huffman: Good. I know it's hard. No qualifiers. I know it's hard. Who spends more time reading the comments on your videos online?
Cliffe Knechtle: Stuart.
Stuart Knechtle: Fortunately, it's rare. Fortunately, it's rare.
Eric Huffman: That's good. You want to stay away from that, both for positive and negative comments. You want to stay away. Who's more likely to change their mind after hearing a good argument from the other side?
Stuart Knechtle: That one might be 50-50.
Eric Huffman: Is that a tie?
Stuart Knechtle: That might be a tie, yeah.
Eric Huffman: Okay. Who's more introverted when the cameras are off?
Cliffe Knechtle: Cliffe.
Eric Huffman: Cliffe? All right. I respect that. Who's struggled more with doubts on their faith journey?
Cliffe Knechtle: Stuart.
Eric Huffman: Okay. Now, the last question I'll ask is from one preacher to two others here. Who's the biggest procrastinator when it comes to writing Sunday sermons?
Cliffe Knechtle: Oh, clearly Stuart. Clearly. It's a no-brainer.
Eric Huffman: All right. So right off the bat, I know that I relate more to Stuart than to Cliffe, because procrastination is my-
Stuart Knechtle: You don't want to quench the Spirit by prepping too much, if you know what I mean. There you go.
Eric Huffman: That's right. That's right. It's a good justification for procrastination.
Cliffe Knechtle: Yeah, that was quite the justification.
Eric Huffman: All right. Well, I'm so grateful to have you guys on, and I'm glad we got started on kind of a fun start here. I am just in awe of what God has done and continues to do with both of you, really. But Cliffe, you're especially outstanding in a way. I'm not trying to float your boat here, but just your trajectory is unusual in that the older you get, the more in touch you become with young generations, and the more viral your videos are going now. It's just been astonishing to watch, especially since 2020 or about that time. But I want to ask, why did you decide to dedicate your life, Cliffe, to talking with skeptics and young college students about the Christian faith?
Cliffe Knechtle: The more I see the gap between people and God, between people and Christ, the more I want to fill that gap by introducing people to Jesus Christ. Secondly, a father in the Lord named Leighton Ford was speaking at the University of Arizona, and he heard a hellfire brimstone preacher stand up and tell all the students they were going to hell in a handcart, and he said, "Cliffe, why don't you go out and try and present both the love and the truth of Christ and see what happens?" So those two things coming together, my own personal experience, and then the encouragement of Leighton Ford motivated me to start doing that on college campuses.
Eric Huffman: That's interesting. I mean, in some ways, you saw it as kind of, at least in part, a corrective against the dominant narrative students were hearing from Christians and pastors, the hellfire brimstone stuff?
Cliffe Knechtle: Well, that was part of it, and that's what Leighton shared with me that he had seen there at the University of Arizona, and his thinking was students gathered around and listened to that kind of hellfire brimstone stuff, and there was a crowd that gathered. So if they're going to gather and listen to that stuff, why don't you go out and try and present both the love and the truth of Christ and explain why, give reasons for the belief.
Eric Huffman: As the years have gone by, compared to today, compared to when you started, do you think the same misunderstandings or the same hellfire and brimstone is being communicated to students today? Are they getting that same message? Are you finding the need to correct against the heavy-handed message of Christianity, or are they just not hearing the Gospel at all by the time you talk to them?
Cliffe Knechtle: They're not hearing the Gospel at all. The heavy-handed preachers are getting fewer and fewer in number that visit college campuses. So now it's more an issue of dealing with agnosticism, with the whole attitude that "I don't know whether there's a God or not, and I'm not sure that you can know either." So there's both a humble agnosticism, but also a hostile agnosticism that is, I think, the biggest challenge.
Eric Huffman: How interesting. Well, one thing that you guys have been up to lately, in addition to traveling the country and going on college campuses and also pastoring the church that you lead back home, is you've done some writing lately. We were talking about this right before we started rolling, and I just want to make sure we inform our audience of this latest project of yours. It's called Demolishing Doubt. Both of you team wrote this together. And I hear that the book has been released and it's available now?
Stuart Knechtle: It is. Yeah.
Eric Huffman: Congratulations.
Stuart Knechtle: Yeah, thank you very much. It's our first together, and we're glad we get something down to paper. We've had some students say, "Hey, something will hopefully pass on beyond you guys' death." That was a little morbid, but...
Eric Huffman: Realistic, yeah.
Stuart Knechtle: Right.
Eric Huffman: Was it basically motivated by, and is it a summation of the questions you fielded on these college campuses over the years?
Stuart Knechtle: Yes, yeah. You know, it's interesting how a lot of conversions happen through the YouTube channel and TikTok, where these poor kids will be taking long day trips in their car, and they'll just listen to episodes on loop. So many of them will come to consider Christ that way. I've actually had a few friends who I never thought would even consider Christ who've written me saying, "Hey, I think I'm taking that step."
I think with this book, hopefully it'll even be even more so where people can get some of the tools for the toolbox, especially the Christians, and then hand it on to a non-believing friend who can start to get really the reason for potentially the hope that they could have rather than just some level of optimism that only this world can offer. And I think something off the paper as well, at least for me in the past, you know, it depends if you're an audio learner or visual. But for me, at least, if I'm reading some arguments out of a book, I get those way more ingrained than me than if I listen a couple of times on audio.
Eric Huffman: For sure. That's very exciting. Again, congratulations on that. I hope everybody will check it out. What are some of the most common questions that y'all are hearing lately from modern-day college students across the country?
Cliffe Knechtle: The book is based on taking an atheist and showing him, first of all, that the evidence is God exists. In other words, biblical faith is a response to evidence. Biblical faith is not just blind naivete. Then after we've moved a person from atheism to theism, a general type of theism, the next question is, well, has this God, whoever God is, revealed Himself, Herself, Itself, Themselves? And that's why we go hard at the evidence that the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are historically reliable. We're not trying to convince people that the Bible is a word of God. Instead, we're taking skeptics and cynics and saying, "Okay, here's the evidence that the Gospels are historically reliable."
Then the third issue is, once they've accepted the Gospels as possibly historically reliable, does the historical evidence of the way Jesus lived, the way Jesus taught, the way Jesus died, loving and forgiving His enemies, and the way Jesus rose from the dead, point to Him being trustworthy and reliable. And then once a person is beginning to see that, that Christ is reliable, the fourth point is, this is what faith is. It's a commitment. It's trusting Christ. It's responding to His love, responding to His grace, and embracing His truth. So that's basically the outline of the book. And that outline is based on what, for 46 years, I've been trying to do with atheists leading to faith in Christ.
Eric Huffman: Interesting. I love it. So the trajectory, as I understand it, is the first question you have to get through is God, yes or no? And then the second question is, which God?
Cliffe Knechtle: Correct.
Eric Huffman: And who is God? And then the third question is, if Jesus is God, is He worthy of worship? And the fourth question is, if so, so what?
Cliffe Knechtle: Bingo. You got it, brother.
Eric Huffman: That's really clear. I really appreciate the clarity of that. I know it's going to make a difference in many lives, the book, as your many, many videos online have. You know, when I was thinking back to my college days, when I lost my faith and renounced my faith in Jesus in college, the big competing worldview that a lot of people were influenced by was what became the New Atheist Movement. You know, the Richard Dawkins and Dennett and Lawrence Krauss and all them guys that were really, I would say, taking captive the minds of impressionable young college kids like me. But that movement died out pretty quickly, 10 years ago or so. What would you say has filled that void? What's the most prevalent competing worldview that y'all are encountering on college campuses today, if you could define it?
Stuart Knechtle: Oh, the therapeutic age that we're in now. You know, the Philip Rieffs and those boys. I mean, Sigmund Freud even kind of set the tone really a while back, and it's really come to fruition now in many ways. I've worked at Mass General Hospital and some churches in the past where a lot of the psychodynamic approach and a lot of the, "Hey, let's look inward"... Eric, I'm sure you've heard of these terms like expressive individualism and moral therapeutic deism coined by Christian Smith out there at Notre Dame. I really just see it as God is my therapist. It's all about me. It's all about my dreams and desires, my destiny. And no longer am I going to find my identity from my community or God, whatever God that might be, at least. Instead, I'm going to find my identity by looking inward and my own striving and what I can accomplish.
And I see that as tremendously... you know, Lasch wrote that book, I think in the 70s, Culture of Narcissism. And that's just fleshed out. I mean, talk about prophetic. I just see that even more and more fleshed out today, which is ideas like, "Hey, learn to get over the guilt of cheating on your spouse because it's all about your own personal happiness and well-being." Or connected to that one, "Hey, the only thing you should be shameful about is feeling shame because it's all about feeling good."
So we're caught up in the feelings and this therapeutic age. That's the one we oftentimes have to get around on a university campus to show people that it's not all about them. It's not just, hey, yeah. It's like Brad Pitt said not too long ago. He said, "Oh, yeah, if you need religion..." And I hear he's actually considering faith more now. This was a couple of years ago. But he said, "Hey, if you need religion, then go ahead and take it if it works for you and is good for you." And I've heard many celebrities say variations on that and many university students say it now. But we want to give the evidence for it, the truth behind it. We don't want to say come to it because it works well or makes you feel good. We want to say come to it because it's true. And part of it being true, obviously, will be lived out, yes, experientially, existentially, and it will make you feel good.
Eric Huffman: I can only imagine that's a hard case to make for young people that have been steeped in these waters. They don't even know the assumptions they're making about the sort of me-centered worldview and why that's a problem. I guess even on the right in the cultural milieu, let's say, like even the Jordan Peterson approach is all about personal responsibility and taking charge of your own life and dealing, you know... And so everybody's sort of swimming in these waters of thinking about self above all else. So I don't know how you break through that. How have you guys gone about piercing the veil of those assumptions and talking about how the Christian view is an alternative one to that?
Cliffe Knechtle: Any philosophy, any religion that does not take sin seriously is a fantasy. From bullying to racism to sexism to Ukraine and Russia to Hamas, Hezbollah, Israel, you just keep going down the list to the divorce rate in the United States. If you can't grapple with what's wrong with us and begin to realize that Jesus' diagnosis of the problem as being human sin is spot on, I think you're living in a fantasy world. And when I start talking about divorce, students get real quiet because they begin to understand pain and alienation in a profound way due to the fact that mom and dad could not get along together.
Well, what is that? It's selfishness, it's narcissism, it's meanness. Well, what is that? That's sin. So, from within, out of the heart of man come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness, wickedness. All of these evil things come from within and they defile a person. Now, that's a challenging message to communicate in this culture. So, to do it creatively, to do it in a way that connects with people is a challenge that we face.
Then secondly, to communicate in a culture that says there is no such thing as a free lunch, that no, there is amazing grace. And God does not want us to live in shame and guilt. He wants to forgive us, but we got to repent.
There's another difficult concept to try and communicate: repentance. And yet if we're at university trying to grow our intellect, would it not be wise to grow, to become better people, more loving, more compassionate, more gracious, kinder, more forgiving? I think that a lot of students today and a lot of people today in our culture understand the importance of that because we've been hurt, we've been burned.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, for sure. As long as sin is a dirty word that bad Christians use to make us feel bad about ourselves, I feel like you're just going to be trapped in this forever. You know, this turnstile of secret shame and never really getting over yourself or past the struggles that you're facing every day.
I'm glad you brought up, by the way, some of the modern-day issues that are important to college students and to a lot of people, because a lot of the questions I've seen y'all field in your YouTube videos are so emotionally charged that students feel so strongly about them. That if Christians don't have a satisfying answer to this one issue, whether it's Gaza or Trump's America or ICE or, you know, name your issue, why my LGBTQ friend got kicked out of Christian camp. You know, if you don't have an answer to my pain right now, then your whole worldview is, you know, it's not even worth considering. How do y'all handle those sorts of heated and heartfelt questions that are emotionally charged?
Stuart Knechtle: Well, I see the contradiction, the LGBTQ movement, for example, where there was this all-men, gay camp in Colorado a little while back. And the idea of somebody who was trans coming into that camp, there was a heated, let's just say, dispute over because this gay camp wanted only gay men. So the idea of any type of person transitioning that wouldn't count. So we see the inner tension and really contradictory nature in these matters. And we try and go after those, whether it be the LGBTQ issue, whether it be in Islam, whether it be in secular humanism, you name it. And then we try and show the consistency of Christianity across the board. So a lot of these emotional hot buttons... you know, another one would be, does emotional violence equal physical violence?
Eric Huffman: What's emotional violence? Just give me an example.
Stuart Knechtle: Yeah. I mean, somebody who's very secular would say emotional violence would be, for example, him saying, "I have a racist friend."
Eric Huffman: Oh yeah. Yeah. I've heard that.
Stuart Knechtle: We get that from time to time. I mean, some would say just wanting to debate. It's like one woman said to me, when I said, "Hey, let's have a friendly debate," she said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, how dare you? No, we're not going to debate. Let's agree on everything first and then maybe we'll have a gentle discussion." And so even moving into a debate where you disagree too intensely, that's offending my sensibilities. And how dare you? So it's the equivalent.
You know, when we say, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, well, words will never hurt me," obviously, words do hurt, but we still don't want to say, if I call you an idiot, that's the same as me punching you in the face and giving you a concussion. Obviously, punching you in the face and giving you a concussion will slightly be worse than me calling you an idiot. So let's be real here.
Eric Huffman: So you were saying that you sort of call out the contradictions that you see as a way of answering people's emotional questions, I guess. But you guys do that in a way that's different than I would be prone to do it, which is just calling it ridiculous and saying, why don't you see it the way I see it? You guys have such grace with how you go about these conversations and trying to win the person and not just the argument. Could you say a little bit about like how you do that? What's the way you go about that that's successful in some ways on these college campuses?
Cliffe Knechtle: Well, the key is to listening to people. Now, listen to a person, understand what their thinking is. Then secondly, what we try and do is show the logical inconsistency. So in our culture, moral relativism has a stranglehold. And yet be you a Republican or a Democrat, you're outraged about the opinions and the behavior of the other folks. Well, the question is, why are you so outraged? If everything is really just relative, what are you getting so honked off about? Because you have a conscience. Because you have a moral framework that you build your life on. And yet you're trying to tell me that that moral framework is just a blind prejudice? No, you know better than that. You know that you have a conscience that ties you into right and wrong. Where does that conscience come from? If there is no God, it comes from nowhere. It's just a personal bias. But if there is a supernatural God who is holy and good and just, and if His character throughout eternity has defined right and wrong, then you have an ability due to the fact He's created you in His image to understand what is right versus what is wrong.
Eric Huffman: Things like right and wrong, words like "should" and "ought," good and evil, these are all highly theological terms and they all imply objectivity. And so there is an inherent contradiction when somebody who claims to have a subjective worldview of truth, like your truth is yours and mine is mine, when people use those words in an objective way. And I think gently calling that out can be a real eye-opener for people who are skeptics or agnostics or atheists, as you say. That's interesting.
I think one of the ways y'all have been so successful, to put a word to it, is your approach is different, man. And I'm not sure y'all even... maybe you are aware of how different your approach is in the Christian apologetic space, especially around the need for humility and the way you value confidence in a humble sense, like assurance and security. And what I mean by that is, Cliffe, you're always leading with what a sinner you are. Like that's always like your leading-edge argument is before I get to all my points, y'all need to know what a filthy, rotten person that I am.
Cliffe Knechtle: That's exactly right.
Eric Huffman: I know that's intentional. What's the utility there? What's the fruit of that that you've seen over the years?
Cliffe Knechtle: All right. I'm attacking moral relativism. Sin is real. Evil is real. But when I say that, I better start with "and evil is within me". Secondly, I'm attacking self-righteousness. When you read the Gospels, obviously Jesus attacks the sin of self-righteousness more than any other sin, the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. To be play-acting, pretending to be better than others. I think it's fascinating how Jesus goes after moral people for their sin more than He does for immoral people for their sin. So I'm going after moral relativism. I'm going after self-righteousness. And I'm trying to connect with people that indeed we all have a problem with wrongdoing. That's why we all experience guilt. And now Christ wants to forgive us and wipe away the guilt and give us great freedom and spontaneity in living life to the fullest. Now that's a lot of what I'm trying to do.
Eric Huffman: Boy. And what I appreciate about you, Cliffe, is... and I'm laughing, I don't mean to make light of it, but I'm really in awe of it because you don't just say like a lot of preachers, "Well, I'm a sinner just like anybody." You get specific, man.
Cliffe Knechtle: Oh, you bet.
Eric Huffman: I mean, you talk about like how if somebody asked you, "Do you love racists?" And you're like, "Yeah, I love racists," and the whole campus explodes, you know, with outrage. But what you mean is that there are racists in your life who you love because God first loved us when we were sinners, right?
Cliffe Knechtle: Exactly.
Eric Huffman: You don't love racism, but you love some racists. And you've also talked about your temper and how that's been a problem in the past. And you've gotten very raw about that with the things you've done with your wife or your sons and how your temper's gotten out of control and you've had to learn by the grace of God to manage that. Why is it important to get that specific in your confession, public confession?
Cliffe Knechtle: Well, I think that's what we call honesty. That's what we call vulnerability. That's what we call authenticity. And I can assure you today, we all are looking for authenticity. We all are sick and tired of "Let's polish my image and let's impress as many people as we can by being online or whatever with how great I am and what a great life I live." Come on, guys. We all have feet of clay and we know that down deep. And therefore, authenticity, I think, is at a premium today because people want to know. What are you talking about? How do you live your life? What are your foibles? What are your problems? And let's not hide behind some magic image that we've constructed to impress people with how great we are. No. God is great. Cliffe is not great. Jesus Christ is great. Cliffe is not great. And the whole point of what we're doing out here is to introduce you to the great one who is Jesus Christ, not me.
Eric Huffman: Right. Amen. I saw in another recent interview you did with the British young man whose name I'm not remembering right now.
Stuart Knechtle: Elliot, yeah. Or Ellis O'Connor.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, no, it was Elliot. That was an incredible interview. But one thing that really stood out to me in that interview, Cliffe, was your treatment of 1 Corinthians 13 and as far as it being sort of a way of getting at a confessional, when you say your name in there instead of love or the name of Jesus.
Cliffe Knechtle: I've got to replace that word love with Cliffe. And that'll help you understand what I mean when I say I am a dirty rotten sinner. Cliffe is patient. Cliffe is kind. Cliffe does not envy. Cliffe does not boast. Cliffe is not proud. Cliffe is not self-seeking. Cliffe is not easily angered. Cliffe keeps no record of wrongs. Oops. Cliffe always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Cliffe never fails. That's wrong. I am a dirty rotten sinner. And then when you begin to understand that God loves me so much that He sent His Son Christ to die on a cross for my sin. That in spite of the way I really am, He offers me forgiveness and loves me. Then all of a sudden, the lights begin to go on.
Eric Huffman: I just thought that was a fascinating answer to Elliot's question, Cliffe and one that people don't often think about as a way of framing just how far short we fall of Jesus. The other way you all demonstrate humility is with... I think it's quiet confidence. When I've never heard Christian apologists say, "I don't know," as much as you guys say, "I don't know." At first, I guess some might think, well, no, man, don't say, "I don't know. Give it to them. Double down. Flex." But when you guys don't genuinely know the answer to the question a student is asking, you say it. I wonder why you do that. There's got to be some fruit from it that you see because you do it so often. I just wonder what lesson is there for other Christians talking with people that have questions.
Stuart Knechtle: It's like this one musician's husband came through our church about a year ago. And he said the number one answer I've heard you guys give was, "I do not know." And he polished that off. That answer probably in the 90s or 80s even. He's been saying that for a while. And we get that on college campuses, too. Sometimes, especially me, I'll probably be a little more hardheaded than you when it comes to trying to giving three, four answers, and I'm thinking I'm giving him something, but then all of a sudden I'm realizing, no, none of it's getting through. It's all finished with, "I do not know. Maybe we have this conversation further tomorrow."
And very frequently they'll say, "Oh, that's my favorite answer that you just gave right there because growing up I left the church because my priest never said, 'I don't know.' As a matter of fact, he scolded me for asking questions. And so that's why I left the faith." But we enjoy, if it's the God of the universe whose ways are far above ours and is omniscient and we're very limited in our thinking, then surely there's got to be some space there. But we try and balance it with say, "I do not know," but that doesn't mean cower and fall fully in line with this politically correct culture. You got to get up, get out. And I hope your blood is boiling to a certain extent when someone's really teeing off on Christ, but still responding gently yet pointedly.
Eric Huffman: Hmm. The theme I see both with just your humility and confessing your specific sins and saying, "I don't know," is your willingness to risk maybe losing a battle to win a greater war. You risk embarrassment in the short term to get somewhere in the long term. Is that sort of what you're thinking when you when you approach these conversations this way?
Cliffe Knechtle: Not really. I once said to Steve Brown, that wonderful Presbyterian minister from down south, "Steve, I think I'm going to try and lose the battle in order to win the war." And he looked at me and said, "Cliffe, don't you ever intentionally lose a debate. That's unacceptable. You speak the truth clearly and then you trust the Holy Spirit to work in people's hearts."
So I find that the answer "I do not know," first of all, is honest. If anybody thinks they've got all the answers to all the difficult questions, they're an arrogant twit. Nobody has all the answers to all the difficult questions. Nobody. In fact, Job's friends thought they did have the answer and they were sorely mistaken. Sorely mistaken.
If you're looking into the face of a person who's gone through a lot of suffering and you claim to know why God allowed that to happen and why God didn't intervene, give me a break. And if you think you know that 9/11 was God's judgment on the homosexual population in New York City, you are an arrogant twit. You don't have the faintest idea. So people begin to understand, you know, nobody has exhaustive knowledge in any field of knowledge. Is there any postdoc student who has absolute knowledge of biology? No. Is there any postdoc student in chemistry who has every chemical theory down pat? No. Albert Einstein said, "I know less than 1% of all there is to know." And for us to come off like we got all the answers nailed down to all the difficult questions is dishonest, it's arrogant, and eventually people are going to see through it.
Eric Huffman: It's really helpful for me to hear, yeah, you're not conceding the battle in terms of losing a debate; you're just being honest. And that is refreshing in a way, especially when the questions these students are asking are so urgent questions. Like you often hear, you know, "Tell me why I should believe in God." And I think that's a good thing to talk about on this podcast here is when you hear a question like, "Tell me the reasons for believing in God." Again, this is that first question you address in your book, the big question about, "Is God there or not?" What are what are the points you find are most salient and compelling for people?
Cliffe Knechtle: Well, the ones that I've been using recently are, let's say there is no God. Then what you believe is non-existence produces existence. That's a miracle. The only problem is, my atheist agnostic friend, you don't have a miracle worker.
Second point. Chaos produces order. That's a miracle. That does not normally happen. Oh, I'm so sorry, my atheist agnostic friend, you don't have a miracle worker. There is no God for you.
Third point. Non-life produces life. At one point in history of the world, there was no life, no human life. So non-life produces life. That's a miracle. But I'm sorry, you don't have a miracle worker. Gosh, you believe that non-reason produces reason. That is a miracle. The only problem is you don't have a miracle worker. Gosh, you believe that matter produces morality. That's a miracle. Sorry, you don't have a miracle worker. You believe that matter produces love. That's a miracle. Sorry, you don't have a miracle worker. So those are some of the lines of thought that I use.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, I've also heard you appeal to love as an ideal. Tell us more about that. Why is love a clue?
Cliffe Knechtle: If you take love out of my life, you have totally smashed my life. If I take love out of your life, I have totally smashed your life. Now, would you please get your microscope out and show me love? Would you please get your X-ray out and give me an X-ray of love? Would you please give me an MRI of love? You can't do it, and I can't do it. It's non-material, and yet it is such a fundamental part of life. It is scary. It is such an important part of our lives.
Now we've got to ask the question: is it real or not? And if it is real, that demands that there's more to reality than matter and energy, what you can X-ray or put a... seeing it through an MRI. So your experience of life has to be explained. What's the best explanation for love?
Stuart Knechtle: Obviously, I'm convinced the best explanation for love is a spiritual being separate from you and me who's eternal, who creates us with this innate ability to love. The most convincing one for me is one agnostic philosopher not too long ago said, "We were raised red in tooth and claw, so let us just love one another. We came from monkeys and apes, so let us just love one another." We know that doesn't stack up.
We know if the powerful just dominate the weak, and that's really the point of life, says evolution, how in the world do we get to the point of love? And love is based out of commitment, sacrifice, and looking to the long term, the long run. At the very most out of evolution you can get reciprocal altruism, but even then I see that falter all the time. Because if you have this type of altruism that occurs supposedly, well, what occurs when you have two different warring groups? If somebody sacrifices, so we can look biblically a Jew for a Samaritan or a Samaritan for a Jew, well, then you're harming your own group by sacrificing for somebody else who's different from you.
And so yet again, in the animal kingdom with evolution, it just doesn't stack up. And so you have to step out of the evolutionary theory that so many university students and beyond live by, in order to get to this place of intangible love. Or you take it from more of a psychological standpoint. It's all dopamine. It's all different forms of oxytocin and neurochemicals. Well, am I really going to go home today, and I see my wife on the couch, and I walk in the door, and I say, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm just going to give you a foot massage and be committed to you just today because my dopamine and oxytocin are functioning in a certain way"? I think she'd tell me, "Get back outside of the house. Go right back to work. I don't want to hang out or watch Netflix with you." So in every single category, this this idea of love just breaks down if there is no God.
Eric Huffman: Wow, to me, the most compelling argument for God's existence that can be made is the power of love as everyone has experienced it. And the fact that the theme of love is the theme of Scripture cover to cover, that this God who is love in essence is the one driving the story is... even for the most ardent skeptic, I would think that's a pretty compelling reason to consider God.
Based on my own experiences and conversations, I would guess the question of God's existence is an easier sell for students than the question of why. The God of Christianity versus any other God. Why are Christians the ones who are right? How do you get after that in a way that's winsome and compelling for students in making the case that it's the Christian God who is truly God?
Stuart Knechtle: I go back right 2,000 years ago. One of the main reasons people were becoming Christians was obviously the evidence from the resurrection, but the knowledge of there being a personal God who can connect with you, who even loves you, was so foreign to all the other unknown gods that it was scary. And so people found that to be tremendously attractive and said, "Wow, this is so foreign. This is ridiculous." And not only that, but this God loves a slave, loves women, loves children, loves a Jew. That's absurd, that idea.
And so starting there alone just historically shows that Christianity offers something that's radically different from Allah, who says, "Just submit, and I'll have mercy on those who I want to have mercy on," and it's totally capricious. Or Zeus, for example, you go way back when, and Zeus, yet again, very capricious, but if you honor the god in a certain kind of way, then you won't get struck with a thunderbolt or a lightning bolt. So just starting from I think the security you get, the character you get, and that personal, loving relationship you get through Christianity is so compelling to so many. Secondly... go ahead.
Eric Huffman: Well, I'm sorry to interrupt. Why don't you finish your point, and then I'll ask my question.
Stuart Knechtle: I always land on, look, if Jesus Christ claimed to be God, I see it all the time in a psych unit, people claim to be Jesus Christ. And what they mean by that, they claim to be God. It's interesting how it's always Jesus Christ. Even somebody from a Middle Eastern background, it's Jesus Christ.
Eric Huffman: Nobody's ever done ISIS.
Stuart Knechtle: I said, but that's a side point. But I don't believe the schizophrenic... if Jesus Christ claimed to be God, that he's a schizophrenic, could convince 36% of the world and counting that he truly was God and is God. I think that's a very tough tough sell. So that's one.
Two, I think his teachings. You know, Albert Cole obviously over there at Harvard said that all ethical teachings are simply footnotes to the Sermon on the Mount. And so his ethical brilliance... he was really the first one to teach that it was cool to be kind. No, no other god, no, no other person in the Roman Empire. You go back to the Greeks, you go back to Plato, Aristotle, it was never cool to be kind, especially if you supposedly were God. And then the resurrection itself. I think the death and resurrection, yet again, it's so hard to push back against: well-known tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, 500 eyewitnesses. Paul says many of whom have fallen asleep, but those who haven't, go and check with them, talk to them. Agrippa, "These things were not done in a corner." It's not some conspiracy theory that you look at today. It's just a few people getting together and around. No, clearly these things were not done in a corner. Go check it out.
Women to the tomb, for example, or the enemy attestation, and the Gospel of Matthew, or my favorite is thousands upon thousands of Jews would be the last ones to ever become Christians to think Jesus Christ is the Son of God, become Christians overnight. So how do you explain these things? I think they're inexplainable. And so clearly the Gospels are written as historical nonfiction, not historical fiction like C. S. Lewis talked about.
Eric Huffman: I think that's an important point is the reliability of the New Testament accounts, because a lot of people just think those came along centuries after and were make-believe, you know, legend. But history bears it out, what you're saying, that these were real-time events being recorded pretty much in real time. As we talk about love as evidence for God, I wonder about the claim that y'all have heard a lot, as I'm sure that you know, every religion pretty much has love at its center or near its center. Every religion teaches love as a concept. And so why can't we look at it like the old blind men and the elephant analogy, and everybody's just looking at part of the puzzle, but there's a much bigger puzzle, and we're all just on different paths to the same destination?
Cliffe Knechtle: Because that's highly disrespectful.
Eric Huffman: How?
Cliffe Knechtle: If I look into the face of an atheist and say, "You and I agree there is no God," and you say that, and I say, "There is a God," and we agree, that's being brain-dead, and it's being highly disrespectful. When I look into the face of a Hindu, I'm looking into the face of a person who believes that everything is part of God: monism. When I look into the face of a Muslim, I'm looking into the face of someone who says, "No, there is one God: Allah, and Jesus is a good prophet, but Jesus is definitely not God." And when I look into the face of a Buddhist, I'm looking into the face of a person who believes that there is not necessarily any type of God, because Siddhartha Gautama Buddha never once talks about God. And to try and argue that these all are saying the same thing is not fair.
Now, are there similarities, particularly in the area of ethics, particularly in the area of love? Yes, there are. Well, why would that be? Because I'm convinced we're created in the image of God. We all have a rational mind and a conscience, and we all understand that there is a difference between justice and injustice, good and evil, right and wrong, and that love is real. So, in spite of the fact that there are similarities in all the different religions, there are also some fundamental contradictions. And because of those contradictions, it is intellectually dishonest to say, "Oh, they're all saying the same thing."
C. S. Lewis was walking through the faculty lounge at Oxford, and the faculty was having a debate: "What's the difference between Christianity and every other world religion?" And C. S. Lewis said, "That's obvious: grace." Every religion is an attempt to work your way to God by following the rules, by working off your bad karma. Faith in Christ is a statement: "I cannot work my way to God because God is holy and I'm not, but God in His grace offers me forgiveness, reconciliation with Himself." That is a fundamental contradiction between Jesus Christ and every major world religion.
Eric Huffman: I think Christians most most Christians understand that very well. Like grace is an amazing and, you know, very distinctive thing about Christianity. But to non-Christian skeptics, I can see how even that message grace is lacking in their view, because we're still saying that non-Christians are at risk of hell forever, which I think hell is probably undergirding a lot of these other conversations and questions people ask, right? Because at the end of the day, we're saying there's something eternal at stake here, and you don't want to go to that other place, so come to Jesus. How do you deal with students and their questions about judgment, eternal judgment, and heaven and hell?
Stuart Knechtle: Well, this is the most justice-oriented, justice-driven generation perhaps in our nation's history. You look at all the social movements, you look at all these people who say, "I want justice. It must happen." But what they don't realize is, okay, yet again, that's a moral value. Yet again, that's immaterial. And how do you define justice? And if there is no Judgment Day, if there is no hell, there is no punishment, especially the eternal level, well, you're never going to get ultimate justice, never ever.
So it's like the woman I was counseling once who had received five different correctional surgeries because her husband kept beating her to a pulp, and the cops never believed her story, really. So she's never going to get justice if there's never a Judgment Day. So how interesting it is that folks are so oriented towards justice, and yet they don't believe that there's a Judgment Day, they don't believe there's a hell.
Obviously, if you and I go to McDonald's and somebody comes in and starts spraying bullets in McDonald's, kills a few people, and I walk up to the person and say, "Oh, wow, good shot. Let's get a coffee real quick. Let's get a small fry," well, obviously there's a word for that, and that's tremendous injustice. And if you want justice to occur, well, then you're going to stand up for the hurting, you're going to stand up for those who are getting mistreated like that. But I think everybody wants that writ large. It's on our hearts. We want judgment to ultimately occur one day so the crack baby doesn't just get ripped off her life, and it's the blink of an eye, and boom, puff, it's done.
So, just like C. S. Lewis talked about, if there is a hunger out there, then there's food. If there's a desire for sex out there, then there's most likely is sex. If there is a desire for eternity and even Judgment Day out there for justice to win out and our souls to last forever, then most likely that justice is pointing to a Judgment Day, and our souls are pointed to a God-shaped hole that wants to be fulfilled eternally.
Eric Huffman: Sure. No, I appreciate that. I think I'm trying to listen through with the ears of a skeptic, and I think everybody agrees the mass shooter or the abusive husband deserves what's coming for him in terms of judgment and justice. But what about the the child born in a remote Arab village, raised Muslim, and has a decent heart, and spends their whole life worshipping Allah, and believing in some way in Jesus, but not obviously as we do as Christians? Is that person as deserving of eternal judgment and hellfire as the mass shooter is? I think we would we would say probably not. But but still there's the question of hell for someone who's not a Christian like this person I'm hypothetically bringing up. So what do you say to those sort of heartfelt questions that when you hear them on campuses?
Cliffe Knechtle: I do not know how God is going to judge those who've never had the opportunity to hear about Christ. In Luke 12:47 and 48, Jesus says, "From the one who's been given much, much will be required, and from the one who's been entrusted with much, much more will be demanded." We're not all going to be judged the same way. And I think you're absolutely right, Eric. There's a big difference between the little kid who grows up in a Muslim home versus a mass murderer. So God does not judge us all the same way. God holds us responsible for what we know, not for what we do not know.
An example of this would be Hebrews 11. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses never heard the word Jesus, but in humility, they put their faith in God. I believe that God will apply the death of His Son, Christ, to their life, and they'll be in heaven not because they were Christian—they weren't—but because they put their faith in God, meaning by that they responded to all the light, the truth that God showered upon them.
So I think we're responsible for what we know, not for what we do not know. I do not know exactly how God is going to judge those who've never heard about Christ. I don't know exactly when the age of accountability is, when God holds a young child responsible for whether they believe in Jesus or not. I personally believe that the little infant I held four weeks ago in my arms, who was dead for 20 minutes, I believe that that little girl will be in heaven, because when I look at how Jesus handled children, when I read 2 Samuel chapter 12 and read how David looked forward to seeing that child he'd had with Bathsheba, who had died, he looked forward to seeing him one day. I think the Scriptures do point to the fact that an all-gracious, all-loving God will see to it that those little children who never made a decision to rebel against God will be in heaven. I think it's a very hard question, but once again, it's asking the question, "Is God just, and is God loving?" And the clear answer that is, absolutely, yes.
Eric Huffman: I go back to the verse in Genesis 18:25, I think it says, "Will not the Lord," I think it says, "the Judge of all the earth do what is right?" So-
Cliffe Knechtle: Bingo.
Eric Huffman: Will not God do what is right? And that's the answer. That's what we know, that He will do what's right. I love that you've started your answer to that question with, "I do not know," after we just talked about how often you say that. Because I do think that non-Christians in our culture have gotten this message, whatever reasons they've gotten the message from Christians and Christianity that we know. Christians know exactly who's going to be in heaven and who's going to be in hell. And we don't. I mean, we don't know. We know that God will do what is right, we know that God is love and that He is just and merciful, and we know from Jesus's teachings that God grades on some kind of curve like you said. I mean, He doesn't judge everyone the same. That's what we know. Beyond that, we don't know. We're going to be surprised in lots of ways if we get to heaven, you know, who else is there. Somebody asked me once, "Is Jeffrey Dahmer really going to be in heaven?" I don't know. Maybe. But it's not going to shock me if he is; it's going to shock me that I am. Like going back to your home, I know my sin more than anyone's, and so I'll be the biggest, you know, surprise underdog in heaven if I get there by the grace of God. I think that's really how Christians should look at this and do look at this from a biblical point of view, but I don't think that's the message many non-Christians have gotten from us on that.
I think that's a very helpful reminder for us today. I think there's a category of unbeliever that I've run into that who no matter the evidence, they'll even say, "Yeah, the evidence does lead to belief in God and in particular Christianity, but I can't get there." Oftentimes, it's for some reasons of church hurt or some experience in their past. No matter how much they like the ideals of Christianity, they despise the Christians that they've known, and so they just can't get over that hump. What do you say to somebody who from an ideological perspective, they're there, but from an emotional one, they're not?
Stuart Knechtle: Just taking that first step shows an openness of the heart and being an honest seeker that I think God honors. And you look at Romans 1 and 2 and general revelation, yet again, that's okay, I see the starry skies above like Descartes talked about, and I see the moral conscience within, so something's pointing me beyond. Now, the emotions perhaps won't get there, but the Bible always talks about primarily love is an action, and the emotions follow. And our culture always talks now about emotions, that's all it is, and maybe action will follow whenever I want it to. But just like with faith in God, decide based off of the action: "I'm going to make this decision. I'm at least going to give it a fair shake, perhaps for a month, right, and by reading the Gospels and talking to God." And then if I decide, "No, the the evidence is definitely wanting, and I have no connection with Him," well, then become more of an agnostic. But that's the whole challenge.
And don't get caught up in the feelings part. It's like I had this 175-year-old woman who I talked to about Christ, and she put her faith in Christ, but a year later, she said, "Stuart, I don't feel the wind at the back of my back anymore. I don't just feel many more some ditch in faith." How sad it is that our culture has taught people that faith, that love is primarily an emotion rather than an action.
Eric Huffman: There's this other subcategory of skeptic that like... I would put Alex O'Connor and Elliot, who we mentioned earlier, in this category, who are just highly intellectual guys that love the ideas of Christianity and think that Christian civilizations tend to yield better results, and so they're sort of culturally Christian. What do you think is standing in, let's say, Alex O'Connor's way of full submission to Christ and an acceptance of Christianity?
Stuart Knechtle: I drove him to the train station after he flew over here. We did a long podcast together. And at the train station... he's okay with me sharing this because he's shared it many times. But I asked him... He was thoughtful. He didn't give a very quick response. But I said, "Hey, what would it take? What would it take? I don't want a notch in my belt. I'm just asking. What would it take?" And he said, "An experience." And I said, "Okay, that's interesting. I hear a lot of atheists say that. What kind of experience?" And he said, "I have no idea." That's playing a really tough game with God that you wouldn't play with one of your best friends, that's for sure. If you don't have any type of experience nailed down, you just say, "God, You have to create some type of experience, and then I'll decide whether that's enough or not." I just-
Eric Huffman: Something about that doesn't seem right.
Stuart Knechtle: Yeah, something doesn't jive there.
Eric Huffman: Wow, me God, you know?
Stuart Knechtle: Right.
Eric Huffman: It's not a wager I want to make. I do think some guys are also just intellectually bound or intellectually proud, and submission to Christ would mean, in their minds at least, some abandonment of intellectual prowess. What do you think, Cliffe?
Stuart Knechtle: You pushed him on that. Show that right there. That went a little...
Cliffe Knechtle: I try to start gentle, and then I get a little more direct if the conversation keeps going. So I start with, you know, "I'm really in agreement with you. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, all the Christian hypocrisy is sick, sad, and wrong. Please look at Jesus Christ. There was not a hypocritical bone in His body. And I'm sorry you've been hurt by Christian hypocrites."
Second point. if I say to you that the reason I reject Muhammad and Allah is because of 9/11 and the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in New York City, I'm a bigot. Those terrorists do not define Muhammad, and I better be open-minded enough to read the Quran and to figure out, "Does the evidence point to Muhammad being a reliable source of information about Allah, or does it not?" And based on who Muhammad was, what he taught, and how he lived, I have to make a decision: he's reliable, or he's not reliable.
And then if the conversation still goes on and the person's being a little challenging, then I like to go to the third point, which is, "Look, buddy, you can talk all day long about how there's not enough evidence for Christ, and I can respect you intellectually and say, 'Okay, there's not enough evidence.' But what you're doing is you're placing yourself in a real pressure cooker, because what you're telling me is, unless X amount of evidence is given me, I cannot believe something. Fine. Now tell me, what are you living for, and how has X amount of evidence been met by this option to Christ?" A
And the answers, Eric, that I get to those two questions are embarrassing. And Alex O'Connor did not want to answer those questions, and I don't blame him, because every Christian, every... excuse me, every secular faculty member on campuses who I'll ask that question of have basically said to me, "Cliff, please don't ask me that, because the answer would be embarrassing."
Eric Huffman: Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it, how the most intellectually sound people can be rendered mute by the simplest question?
Cliffe Knechtle: Correct.
Eric Huffman: It sounds a lot like what the Scriptures say about wisdom and foolishness, you know, like the wisdom of the wise and things like that. It's nothing compared to the wisdom of God and can be brought to his knees so easily. And you've seen that in your conversations with guys like Alex. And I pray for Alex, actually. I think he's close.
Cliffe Knechtle: Don't worry.
Eric Huffman: And y'all's conversation with him was, I mean, it was outstanding. And I hope everybody watching will do a deep dive on some of your other videos, because we obviously don't have time to go into everything I wanted to go into today. But you've got just a ton of other videos and teachings out there.
Stuart, one more question for you, and I've got one or two more for your dad. When you think about everyday Christians who want to have better conversations with skeptics and unbelievers, what do you see as some of the most common roadblocks we put in our own ways and mistakes we make in having those conversations? And how can we have more fruitful conversations with people in our lives who don't believe?
Stuart Knechtle: Number one is the fear of failure. Number two is social anxiety. Number three, very cultural, is fear of offending. Number four is very little to no understanding of political issues. If you have a firmer understanding of political issues, then you can tie that to, say, the moral argument. "Why do you think what's going on in Iran or elsewhere is so bad from an atheistic perspective?"
Next would be feeling like everybody you can just fit into a box, you know, so clearly in Acts, whether it's Lydia, whether it's the jailer, whether it's the slave girl, Paul, Peter, everybody's talking about it, but you handle people differently. Or the Athenians, or the Jews, I mean, these guys were very creative in their approach to sharing Christ. It was not just the Evangecube. And I'm not knocking anybody. If you have the Evangecube and you just want to go by that, just pass that to somebody, not knocking it. But Christians need to get to the point of being a little bit more creative in reading a person.
Then lastly, and this is the one we have with a lot of quarterbacks at major university campuses, is living out your faith. If you're not living it out and you're speaking on both sides of your mouth, then people are not going to take what you say seriously.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, your life is really your testimony, right?
Stuart Knechtle: That's right. Francis of Assisi said something like that. So you have joy when you suffer. And I mean deep joy, joy that lowers your strength, Nehemiah 8:10. You don't gossip when everybody else is gossiping and slandering about somebody. You don't sleep around a bunch that we see with a lot of people in a very hedonistic culture. You know, we live right next to New York City, and it's basically just one big meat market. So you go down the list. And when people see a real difference in you, that makes the gospel a lot more tantalizing.
Eric Huffman: I also think that if people just employed the basics of what we've talked about today in terms of leading with love as the core principle and willing to acknowledge your own sin in a specific and raw, honest way, saying, "I don't know," when you don't know, I mean, those kinds of basic principles can be so helpful to the average Christian and having, you know, coffee pot conversations with people at work or folks we love and we live with who don't believe. So thank you for that, Stuart.
Cliffe, I have to ask you a personal question. As a dad of a son who's younger than Stuart, but I'm going to blink and he's going to be Stuart's age, I can't tell you what a dream it would be to be able to sit on a couch—I'm going to get emotional—to be able to sit on a couch with my adult son and have him look up to me and want to be with me and work with him every day. What does it mean to you to do this every day with Stuart?
Cliffe Knechtle: Oh, it means the world to me. He's an incredible gift from heaven, as is his older brother, Robert, and his younger brother, Ian. My wife Sharon and I, are very blessed parents to have the three sons that we have. They love Christ. They love us. They love each other. They love people. So we're very blessed. But Eric, this has been a very thoughtful conversation you've led us through, and you're obviously a person who understands the importance of loving Christ and loving people. So I know God's going to use you powerfully in your children's lives.
Eric Huffman: Thank you, brother. I appreciate that. It means a lot more than you know coming from you. I respect both of y'all so much. Let me bring it home now. Cliffe, if you could speak just to someone who is interested in Christianity, but not really sure what the gospel even is, what the distinctive of Christianity is in terms of the gospel value proposition, how would you describe the gospel for us?
Cliffe Knechtle: Well, the gospel begins with "I've been alienated from God because of my rebellion against Him, but the good news is He still loves me. He loves me so much, He wants me to spend eternity with Him in heaven. Not a lot of people want to spend eternity with me. God does." And He proved that by sending His Son Jesus Christ to bleed and die on a cross to pay the penalty for my sin. Guys, forgiveness is never cheap and easy. Every time you and I forgive, it costs us. Forgiveness from God means we've done something wrong, it cost Him His life because He took the penalty we deserve in His body on the cross. He rose from the dead. He's alive today. Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.
Now, take a step of faith. Trust in Him to the best of your ability, and He will wrap His arms around you and nothing will be able to separate you from His love.
Eric Huffman: Amen. I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm so grateful for your time today, gentlemen. Cliffe, I know you've got a flight to Switzerland or somewhere to catch, so I got to let you all go. But we'll put links to your YouTube channel and your other ministries as well in the notes for this episode.
Also, I want to remind everybody to check out the new book, Demolishing Doubt by Stuart and Cliffe Knechtle. Guys, thank you all so much for being with us today. God bless you and your continued ministries. I pray for your safety and your effectiveness to continue in what you're doing.
Cliffe Knechtle: You too, Eric. Keep going, brother.
Stuart Knechtle: I appreciate. Thanks, Eric.
Eric Huffman: So grateful. God bless you. Bye-bye.