Why Is This Ex-Muslim Woman Being Attacked for Her Faith?

Transcript

Hatun Tash: Cutting people's arms is not going to help you.

Eric Huffman: Why do Muslims keep attacking this woman for talking about Jesus?

Hatun Tash: These things are happening because they need Jesus.

Eric Huffman: What makes her message so dangerous to Islam?

Hatun Tash: Mohammed is the most obvious false prophet ever.

Eric Huffman: Today, ex-Muslim Hatun Tash talks about the outrage and violence that she's faced surrounding her conversion to Christianity and her claims against Islam.

Hatun Tash, welcome to Maybe God.

Hatun Tash: Thank you very much for having me. Hello.

Eric Huffman: Hello and welcome here. I'm so glad we're able to do this. You are a long way from us. You're across the pond in London. I'm just grateful that you made the time. I'm inspired by your witness and can't wait to talk more about it in a second.

Hatun Tash: Thank you.

Eric Huffman: But first, let's go back in time a little bit to your upbringing in Turkey. You, for 27 years, were living there, born and raised there, born into a Muslim family. Your father, I understand, was an imam in the Muslim faith. Just talk a little about your upbringing and what that was like for you.

Hatun Tash: Well, Turkey is a Muslim country. It wasn't actually this much Muslim country back in my days. It's changed quite a lot now. In my days, if you were wearing headscarf, you were not allowed to go to university. You had to take off your headscarf and then you were able to kind of enter the border of university. But now, if you don't have a headscarf, you can't even get interviews for university. So quite lots of things changed since last, I don't know, maybe like 15, 20 years. It's just like becoming more and more Islamic.

So everyone is Muslim around you. We didn't even know there were Christians among us until three Christians were murdered in Malatya. So that's like back in 2005 or 2007. And then at the same year, there was another Christian who was murdered in north of Turkey. So that was the first time you kind of become aware that there are Christians. But everyone is Muslim.

So you go to mosque, you do your prayers, you fast during Ramadan because everyone else does. Since you were never exposed any different ideology or you didn't meet with someone who doesn't share your view, it would be very difficult to kind of learn what other people think.

Idea of Christians for us is they live in west. They're the ones who go to pubs or nightclubs, half naked and then get drunk. During the new year time they've got this green Christmas tree. They put it up and it's all kind of messed up.

Eric Huffman: So you didn't really know personally any Christians growing up?

Hatun Tash: No.

Eric Huffman: And how devout was your family in the Muslim faith growing up? I mean, was it a daily reality? What was it like?

Hatun Tash: Because everyone is Muslim, everyone does the same thing. You wake up, you do your prayers. You do fast during Ramadan. If you are not doing this, it's not that noticeable. At schools, you learn religion, at weekends you end up on mosques and then do your Quranic studies or memorize the Quran. It's not mainly studies. It's mainly memorizing the Quran. So you grew up such environment.

Eric Huffman: What did you learn about Christians besides that they go to clubs and bars half naked and the Christmas tree stuff? What did you learn about what Christians get wrong about truth about God?

Hatun Tash: So theologically, from very early age, one of the surah you memorize is Allah doesn't have a son. So that's surah 112 of the Quran. From very early age, you memorize that. And then Surah Al-Fatihah, even though they're Arabic, we speak Turkish, but we memorize in Arabic. You learn that Allah's anger towards Christians and Allah's curse towards Jews.

So, you know, Allah doesn't get on well with Christians and Jews. And here, you learn that Jesus didn't die. Someone else died on behalf of Jesus and then Allah took Jesus to himself. Very basic. Also, we learned that Bible is corrupted. Therefore Quran came as the final revelation to correct all that corruption.

Eric Huffman: And you mentioned the goal in your studies was to memorize the Quran in Arabic, but not necessarily to study it. What's the distinction there? And why is it important?

Hatun Tash: Well, so when you turn up, when you grab a Bible, you read your Bible and then you kind of underline things. You ask very basic questions. What does this verse say about God? What does it tell us about man? What is the problem? What is the solution? So those are very basic Bible questions. And then if something doesn't make sense to you, you compare these verses with previous verses from Old Testament, or you look down and see what the church fathers wrote about it to make sense of it.

The Bible I'm holding is in English language. So the language I can understand. Verses, Quran is in Arabic. So you just memorize what the verse says. You don't even know the meaning of it. And purpose of that, you can recite it in your prayers. So there is no way kind of, okay, let me look back and then see what people wrote about Surah 112. Let me look back and then see what people said about Surah Al-Fatiha. Like there is no way to do that. Your purpose is memorized.

God of Bible expresses that my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. So education, questioning is very much encouraged. People question the goodness of God in the garden. People question goodness of Lord Jesus Christ when He was walking on the earth. But you don't have those kinds of things in Islam. If you ask questions that cause you to doubt and then that's sin. So do not ask questions that is going to lead you to doubt. So purpose is just memorize and get on with your prayers.

Eric Huffman: So you never really grew up with any sense of comparative religions or like, this is why we're Muslim as opposed to something else. Basically you were just swimming in those waters and you knew nothing else.

Hatun Tash: Yeah. Because also you don't meet anyone else who kind of shares a different view. I never had a teacher who was Christian. I never had a friend who was Christian. Versus in here you get out of the street, you meet with Christians, Jews, Atheists, even you meet with Atheists, you meet with Muslims. It's very different. Settings are very different. So when you don't have anyone who kind of believes differently, there is no need to discuss those kinds of things.

Eric Huffman: That makes sense. Now, is that experience unique to Turkey or is that a widespread?

Hatun Tash: Muslim. That's very Muslim country thing. Muslims who live in West, they are very much educated regarding... comparing Muslims who live in Muslim countries. Because they expose the Christian beliefs through TV or through friends. But like you go to Morocco, on Fridays in Morocco, streets are full of people. They are doing their prayers on the streets. Okay? But you ask them, why are you Muslim today? Or you bring up something about the character of Muhammad to Muslims, they have no idea.

I learned lots of things about Islam after I left Islam. You kind of think if I knew this much, would I still stuck in it? Probably not. Well, I don't know. But yeah. So Muslims in Muslim-majority countries don't even know the basics because there is no way of being exposed to critics.

I meet with people who live in different parts of the world. Like there is a philosopher in Indonesia. So philosophers, you don't want to spend time with them, do you? Nothing personal. But you just say, how are you doing today, and then you just start getting definition for every word. And then you're just like, oh God, why I end up here?

So they learn to think critically, even for every word. But a philosopher, he is teaching at university in Indonesia. First time he is hearing from me Muhammad's marriage with a child. He's looking into it. He's looking into it after like I'm like kind of repeating the same claim again and again. But he's like in his almost late 50s, never needed to think anything about Islam until someone is repeatedly saying the same thing.

And then he looks into it, he's just like, wow, yeah, this is just wrong. But even philosopher never needed to think about Islam because there is no way you meet with people who critique your ideology or expose your ideology.

Eric Huffman: And that's pretty shocking given that the information we have about Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, the six-year-old girl that is said to have been consummated when she was nine, as if that's somehow an okay thing. They're like, well, he married her at six, yes, but they didn't have sex until she was nine. So get over it. And it's like, no, that's a problem, objectively speaking.

But this sort of thing, even though it's in the holy writings of Islam, it's not something that's taught or explored or questioned in many Muslim-majority nations. But what were you taught about Muhammad growing up?

Hatun Tash: So his perfect example, the one we need to follow to the dot, when it comes to his marriages, there were also widows. So he married the widows so that he can look after them. So you don't get like in your mind, like, yeah, all the women he married, they are widows. So he's a good guy, you know? Like you don't want widows to be like on the streets, not provided.

But when you kind of dig into his life, you're just like, "Oh, they are widows because he made them widows." And none of those widows like falling in love with him. Like he just kind of gently forced, not gently, he forced himself to them. For example, Safiyya, Rayhanah. With Aisha, again, he just married her to look after. I didn't even know Aisha was just a child.

I learned that you can marry a girl who is not bleeding yet and divorce her after I left Islam. Like once I started reading the Quran in a language I could understand. Because you memorize it, memorize the verses. You don't memorize all the Quran. You just memorize few verses that helps you to run your prayers.

Once I came across with Surah 65, I'm just like, Oh, so this verse is saying not only you can marry a child who is not bleeding yet, but after your marriage, you divorce them. I'm just like, this is just no good. You learn his perfect example. But once you start looking in his life... and I'm like pretty sinful human. From my eye, I'm just like, well, to be honest, I am much perfect than Muhammad. The things Muhammad did, I never done. And I would never do it. And if I hear and see someone is doing, I call 999. They need to step in.

Eric Huffman: It's 911 over here, but I hear what you're saying. So you keep using the phrase, perfect example, in terms of what you were taught about Muhammad growing up. Does that mean he was without sin? Is that what Muslims believe?

Hatun Tash: That's what Muslims believe. But Quran teaches Muhammad needed to ask forgiveness for his sins, his past sins and his future sins. According to Islam, he is sinful, but according to Muslims, no, he didn't commit any sin. Before he become a prophet, Angel Gabriel washed his heart and then gave him a brand-new chance.

Eric Huffman: Got it.

Hatun Tash: So they don't see murdering people or raping women, all this, they don't see that as sin.

Eric Huffman: It was justified somehow. Did any of these questions come up for you before you left Turkey and moved to the UK?

Hatun Tash: No.

Eric Huffman: Did you ever question? Were you ever encouraged to question or doubt any of this stuff?

Hatun Tash: I never needed. I was all happy.

Eric Huffman: So when you left Turkey, first of all, tell me the circumstances that led to you leaving your homeland and going to the UK. What took you abroad?

Hatun Tash: I just wanted to learn English and then do more further studies.

Eric Huffman: Okay. And you anticipated a return home at some point. You just wanted to learn and come back home?

Hatun Tash: Yeah.

Eric Huffman: Okay. And when you left and went to the UK, what did you immediately notice? Or when did you start to notice some of these issues with Islam?

Hatun Tash: Well, I never thought that was an issue with Islam until I turned up to church. So have you ever been to Turkey?

Eric Huffman: No, unfortunately.

Hatun Tash: It's one of the places you need to visit before you turn 30.

Eric Huffman: Well, too late.

Hatun Tash: You see people come to Istanbul and then they visit these old churches. It's like tourist place. There is no worships in those places, you just go and then look around all that. So idea of church was for me like, okay, another tourist place.

I moved to England. I stayed in north of UK for a while. And then once I moved down much closer to London, I was living in this very small village. Beautiful, small village, have one church, very old, beautiful building. I turned up to church in the intention, okay, someone can show me around. So like, you know, tourist thing you do.

I met this very lovely lady who was at welcome desk, it was like, during the week, I asked her to show me around. She was trying to make sense of what I was asking. And then she introduced me to a gentleman who was in charge of 18 to 30s group, international house group. And then he introduced me to him. And then I was told, actually, this is the place people come to worship. If I come on Sunday, I can kind of see what's happening.

And then they also invited me to this house group. They didn't kind of sell it as house group. They sold it to me as this is the group where internationals comes together. We play games and then we kind of talk about things. It is good for your English, all that. I was just like, "Sure."

And then I turned up to this house group where everyone was from different part of the world as well as some British who just finished university. And then we played some games and then we start talking about things. That was summertime, September time. Alpha course was starting. I was invited to join Alpha. I did Alpha course. And then after Alpha course, they asked me if we want to get baptized after the Holy Spirit week. And then I was just like, "Why not?" Those are very nice people. If I say no, probably they won't be my friend. All that kind of shame and ‘losing your friends’ perspective. I kind of, sure, I got baptized.

And then as the time went on, it was lent. People are fasting for lent. I figured out they're fasting for lent like from chocolate or from telly. But that was a little bit later. In one of the Wednesday evening as prayer was being led, one of the brothers said, "Thank You Jesus for dying for our sins." And then I was like, "Everyone knows Jesus didn't die."

So I did Alpha. And then it's one of the topics you kind of look into why Jesus died. But it did not click with me at all. And then this brother is thanking Jesus for dying for our sins. And then I'm, Oh, how do you know? And then he says, "Because Bible tells us."

I go home... well, I remember Bible is corrupted. Of course, Bible is going to tell them Jesus died. First thing I did was go to internet and I start looking at the Google. And then I come across with people who are expressing death of Jesus is a historical event and there's no shadow of doubt.

And then the guy I was reading, he's identified as ex-Christian. Once he was a Christian and he's not a Christian. And he's talking about death of Jesus as a fact. And then I'm just like, oh, someone who is not Christian anymore still believes Jesus died. And then I start looking into the Quran to make sure like I understood correctly. Maybe it was my fault Quran says Jesus died, but I don't remember that.

I look at the Quran and then it says they did not crucify Him. They did not kill Him. And then, of course, you are on internet it leads to the one page and then another page. And then you get to see, yeah, Muslim interpretation has been Jesus did not die.

And then I've got this ex-Christian and then I looked at the Bible and then I used again Google to see what the early people wrote about death of Jesus. It was amazing to me people are discussing His resurrection. There are lots of books about whether He rise from the dead or not. But did He die or not, there are not much things out there because everyone is convinced that man called Jesus died on that cross.

At that stage, it wasn't for me more about like why he died. I didn't care that much about that. For me, like historical event. Did this historical event took place or not? Quran says it didn't. Enemies of Christians says it did. Bible says it did. And early Christians are talking about how it happened. And as you read the Bible, like half of John gospel gives you details after details like how it happened.

Anyway, I come to conclusion that, well, author of Quran got it wrong. And you learn that author of Quran is actually Allah. Quran is what Allah passed to Muhammad and then it is all put together. So Allah gives his word to Gabriel. Gabriel gives it to Muhammad. Muhammad is just passing to other people. So you learn it is the very word of Allah.

And then how come Allah doesn't know his story? What else did Allah got wrong? And then I start looking into Quran. Like first time I had a Turkish translation of the Quran from Regent's Park Mosque. And then I start reading the Quran and then you read the Quran and, ooh, this is just not good. This is just not good.

Eric Huffman: Wow.

Hatun Tash: Yeah, I am not Muslim anymore. I read biography of Muhammad in English first time. Of course, you read something and then that makes you, okay, let me check this information. Suddenly my brain start like buzzing, like start asking questions. Oh, kind of the curious mind I never had. So then it's saying, okay, is this correct? Check the reference. Check the reference. And then I come to conclusion that, well, Quran cannot be word of God. If this is the word of God, I don't want to do anything with it.

So I left Islam and then I start digging into Christianity. Main reason I looked into Christianity because I was still going this house group. I was among Christians.

Eric Huffman: You were baptized.

Hatun Tash: Yeah.

Eric Huffman: I got a question about that, by the way. And I want to get back to all of this, the issue of Jesus's death. But when you got baptized, first of all, when you showed up to the Alpha course, which for people watching, Alpha course is something churches offer for like folks that have questions and people that are first step people that just need to figure out whether they believe this stuff or not. And so you went to this Alpha course, were you wearing the headdress and were you...?

Hatun Tash: No.

Eric Huffman: Okay. But they knew you were from a Muslim-majority country?

Hatun Tash: Yeah.

Eric Huffman: They knew you were Muslim.

Hatun Tash: Yeah. I don't think it's like Alpha courses fault because I went through the book, I had put my questions together. It never clicked to me. Like when they asked me, do you want to get baptized, I never thought, Oh, okay. I'm signing up for the death of Jesus. I'm signing up for resurrection. That never clicked to me. Even in Alpha course, I was never asking question, "Oh, how do you know this is true?" I didn't have that mind. That like the first question of like, oh, Christians believe Jesus died on the cross, therefore their thanking Him was, in the house group while after I got baptized, just hearing a prayer. Yeah. Not good, isn't it?

Eric Huffman: Hmm. When you got baptized, did you know it was... I mean, typically that's, you know, leaving behind your old religion. Did you feel like you were leaving Islam when you got baptized or were you just doing it on top of?

Hatun Tash: No. They asked me if I want to get baptized. That was no pressure or anything. I could say like, no. But I didn't want those people to not be my friend. I just like-

Eric Huffman: It was a peer pressure, peer pressure baptism.

Hatun Tash: Oh, no. In Muslim countries, you grew up with the shame and honor culture. Saying no things when someone asks you, it's very, very like bad.

Eric Huffman: Sure.

Hatun Tash: So when I got baptized, I never put together all, if you leave Islam, there is a death penalty on your head. Or if you become a Christian, you are worshipping different God than Allah. Like I never put them together. After, kind of, I saw, well, yeah, leaving Islam is pretty serious thing. And then I'm just like, yeah, I need to dig into it.

I went to church and then I said to my pastor, "Well, I was asked why I worship in three gods, why I believe God had sex with Mary and then they've got baby Jesus. This is just blasphemy. What is this?" And then his response was like, "Don't worry. We don't believe that." And I'm just like, "Well, maybe three months ago I would be satisfied by that answer. But right now, no, I need to back that. I need to figure out like, or do I believe that or not? Because that's what the impression I'm giving to the world and to my loved ones."

Eric Huffman: Yeah. It's so interesting to me as you were talking, because for Christians in the New Testament up to now, the linchpin of Christian teaching is the resurrection of Jesus, not the death of Jesus. For you, it was the death of Jesus and figuring out that He really died that was sort of the first domino to fall in a series of others.

It sounds to me like what that did for you, realizing that the death of Jesus on a cross is maybe the most historically attested event of His life on earth, that He actually died on a Roman cross, and as you said, Christians and non-Christians alike, including all the historians, reputable historians agree that he died on a cross. For you, it seems like that was less about an affirmation of Christianity and more about realizing that Islam is wrong, that the God of Islam got this key historical fact about, you know, the second greatest prophet of Islam historically wrong.

It sounds like the old way had to be broken down before something new could happen. You had to find reasons to really deeply doubt what you'd been raised with before you could figure out what you believe now.

Hatun Tash: Well, if Jesus didn't die, there is no need for resurrection.

Eric Huffman: Right?

Hatun Tash: Like it's very, very rare. I had a debate with Muslims about resurrection because they don't even believe he died. So there is no... Versus like you go out to the West and Christians and atheists are sitting down and having debates regarding resurrection. But with Muslims, you don't need that because they don't believe He died at the first place.

Eric Huffman: Right.

Hatun Tash: Other thing is you can prove someone that Christianity is 99.9% truth. You can make all the arguments from the scripture, but they will still believe Islam is 100% true, even though there's full of contradictions in their mind "this is what is true". So once I figured that out, like I start, first, I'm going to crush what they believe and then replace the new ideology needs to be there.

Eric Huffman: Got it. Because that's what happened with you. I mean, that was your story, I mean, it sounds like.

Hatun Tash: I met someone who identified herself as a Christian for... actually someone who has been identified by missionaries as a Christian for five years. This lady heard from me that Jesus died on the cross and by that stage, she was Christian for five years. So people told her about, "Oh, God is the creator. God sent the prophets. Jesus is Messiah, all that." But they forgot to mention the essential. And then later turned to me and then said, "If she knew that Christians believe Jesus died on the cross, she would never become a Christian."

Because even though she identifies herself as a Christian now, in her mind, Islam teaches Jesus didn't die. And that's a fact.

Eric Huffman: Wow.

Hatun Tash: Allah cannot make a mistake.

Eric Huffman: So that has to be dealt with before any real breakthrough can happen as far as converting to Christianity. And for you, was there a moment after that initial time of doubting that about, you know, clearly Jesus died, so Islam got this wrong, Allah got this wrong? Was there a moment later and how long after was it that you realized not only is Islam wrong, but Christianity is right and this is where I belong?

Hatun Tash: You mean how long it took for me to get humiliated?

Eric Huffman: Yeah.

Hatun Tash: It didn't take that long. Once you figured out, okay, Islam got this wrong and then lots of other things and now this ideology is not only for me, but this is cannot be for humanity, I started looking into Christianity and then basic question you ask. He's perfect. Jesus Christ, eternal Son of God is perfect. He's sinless. Islam agrees. Why did He die on the cross? You read like how awful for someone to die on the cross, how big crime that is.

And then you dig into it and then you just get on your knees and then you see how God is out of His kindness, pouring out His love to you. And then it's just mind-blowing. You see how perfect, how beautiful He is. And then you are just nobody, but He wants to make you somebody. He wants to adopt you in His family.

And then you get to see, even though I thought I was much perfect than Muhammad, I still think that, but comparing me to God, oh, I am just a dirty rug. So, I need Him to address me with His righteousness. I need Him to declare me righteous. The moment you kind of see the power of your sins and then beauty of Jesus's righteousness, just like very humiliating. It's supposed to be humbling, but actually it's like very humiliating because you just wake up the fact that I've been lied to all of my life, I have not been worthy of God's love all of my life.

And now there is someone who loves me enough to give Himself for me. That's, like, humiliating. It's supposed to be humbling, but with the facts or that kind of thing, it's very, humiliating.

Eric Huffman: Yeah. No. I hear exactly what you're saying. And I've talked about my own conversion moment being, I mean, it was beautiful and wonderful, but it was also, yeah, humiliating and horrific because you're confronted with all your sins all at once and you realize what, as you said, a dirty rug you've been and how unworthy you are of any love, much less the perfect love of God and yet He gives it nonetheless.

I mean, it's humiliation, but it's covered in grace too. It's not just, you know, I'm just a terrible person and I always will be. It's like, I'm a terrible person and I'm loved perfectly. It's overwhelming. That's the moment.

Hatun Tash: It's not only like perfectly loved, but you are loved enough for someone to get on the cross and then tell you He loves you from everlasting to everlasting. And there is nothing can change that. So I kind of had that humiliating moment.

And then I was talking with someone from my international house group, thinking like, "Okay, what should I do stuff?" I was told, "Well, you've got to do sinner's prayer." I went to Google. Google has been so happy place.

Eric Huffman: Sounds like it.

Hatun Tash: Because like you don't know where to go. Like, you are very new to everything. It's, like, very different world. And there is this sinner's prayer. So I wrote that down. And then everything every time I repent from my sin, I would write down the sin I remember and then just repeat that. Just repeat that because I didn't even know. Like, no one have... I think people think, like, you know, those very basics. So no one ever told me, like, you confess your sins once for all. It's done deal.

So every time when I remember something, I would come back like a week later, oh, I remembered I've done this, and then I need to put that on the list and then repeat that thing. It wasn't very kind of, easy steps, but at the end, God, out of His love, just poured Himself on me, put me in a place that I am a sinner who needs a savior. I am a great sinner, but my savior is the greatest one ever.

Eric Huffman: Amen.

Hatun Tash: And then you don't have much options. So you dig into the scripture, you start studying scripture, you learn as much as you can. You even like work your ways to: I have right to ask questions now, I have right to underline Bible. All that.

Eric Huffman: How soon after your heartfelt conversion to Jesus and to Christianity did you realize that God was laying on your heart this mission to speak to Muslim people about Islam and about Christianity?

Hatun Tash: I don't know. I taught like going to church, even though I wasn't Christian at that stage. You meet with lots of people who like... in the village I was living, there are lots of international. So you meet with them in the park when you are walking with the dogs, all those kind of things. I would just say, "Oh, come to church with me. Come to church with me."

And then once I kind of confronted by the truth of the gospel, beauty of Lord Jesus Christ, I start doing studies. And then it become kind of default think like you do. I just, in my mind, like, okay, this is what's something you do. Even though areas I mainly focused on was atheism.

So I was doing some studies up in Oxford and then we had a homework. We needed to go out and then find the reason why Oxford students are not Christian. Why he's not a Christian and then what would make that person Christian? So you go and then interview people. I'm like very introvert. I really don't like humans.

Eric Huffman: Really? I get it.

Hatun Tash: So in that I met with a lady who converted from Christianity to Islam. I was like, "Wow." So I looked into that. So I had a conversation with the lady. She expressed that when she was child, she grew up in a church. Her family's involved very much in the church, part of youth club, all that. And then she went to university and met with Muslims who told her, "You worship three gods", who told her "God had sex with Mary. Bible is corrupted. Jesus never died."

And then she didn't know how to answer those questions and then it was logical for her to become a Muslim. And then she married a man who invited her into Islam. She converted into Islam and then she had children. She told me her reasoning. I told her my reasoning. Like I was so exiting old like bad things I learned about Muhammad, which she didn't know that much about it.

And the conversation finished as I wish it wasn't too late for me. So at that stage, I'm Christian, maybe only like two years or something, or I am baptized person only for two years or something. And I was like, "How can you say 'I wish it wasn't too late for me'?" That was kind of made me think as well as meeting and talking with this lady, just like, yeah, those are the same questions everyone asks. Like every non-Muslims are asking this question, every Muslims are asking these questions to the non-Muslims. So we need to deal with that.

And then I start like, okay, what do I need to do? I'm introvert. I don't like humans. It's just like all these things are too much for me. I decided, Okay, I'm going to walk around and then pray for churches, church leaders, so that they can preach the gospel faithfully. So I would walk and then stop in front of the church building and then pray for them.

And then I just, oh, well, I can do this for mosque too. And then I start like doing that for mosque. And then, oh, let me just like give leaflet outside of the mosque on Fridays. And then, oh, let me just go inside of the mosque. And then you just end up like, okay, you are involved with the mosques now.

Eric Huffman: What do you think the lady meant when she said, I wish it wasn't too late for me? Do you think it had something to do with the fact that she knew that-

Hatun Tash: Consequences.

Eric Huffman: Yeah. Is that what it was?

Hatun Tash: Yeah. So she's got child, children, and she's married to a Muslim man who was involved in dawah scene actually. So she-

Eric Huffman: Involved in what? I'm sorry.

Hatun Tash: In Dawah screen. Muslim outreach.

Eric Huffman: Oh.

Hatun Tash: So the moment she says, "I don't want to be Muslim anymore," they will take her child from her.

Eric Huffman: Wow.

Hatun Tash: She will be divorced and then, I don't know... beside like being kicked out from community and having no relatives and friends who is going to take care of her, I don't know how far they would go, but they will take her child for sure.

Eric Huffman: Wow. But something you said to her opened her eyes again to the reality of, I guess, the deficiencies of Islam and the truth of Christianity. You mentioned talking with her about Muhammad, the man, and his flaws. And I know that's become a central part of your ministry and outreach now, because the lead video, featured video on your YouTube channel is a video called Muhammad, the most obvious false prophet. I wondered if you could just walk us through some of the reasons why you've come to that conclusion and why that's such an important point to make.

Hatun Tash: When I first start actively living evangelist lifestyle, among Muslim people, my main focus was the preservation of the Quran. Main reason is that was the first arguments from the Christian perspective I was exposed to. Like how the manuscript shows it's not reliable, how Islamic tradition tells us Quran is being corrupted, all that.

And then as the time went on, when I saw how, to sake of honoring Muhammad, how Muslims are murdering non-Muslims, for example, Charlie Hebdo.

Eric Huffman: Charlie Hebdo in France, yeah.

Hatun Tash: And then we did have some kind of Muslims did some lots of crazy things in Britain as well. So I was kind of intentionally keeping myself from Muhammad, because like, once you kind of dig in one topic, you just become expert on that topic. And then week after week, you want to expose that.

During the COVID, or before COVID, there is this Muslim missionary called Mohammad Hijab. He is very influence in social media and as well as among Muslims. He put up a survey on Twitter. And then he said, "The answer to these questions are obviously anonymous. So please answer truthfully as possible. If you are a Muslim, what causes you to doubt your religion? The most formal following options. So options are moral arguments against Islam, scientific arguments by atheist apologists, arguments for the truth of other religion, weakness of the Islamic civilization. So those are the options.

And most high ranked is moral arguments against Islam. Least clicked was arguments for the truth of other religion. So for me to make the point to Muslim, why Christianity is true means nothing to them. Like, if I don't crush down Muhammad at first.

So once kind of you see such statistics, and then once I start kind of going into the mosques, and I'm doing Bible studies with Muslims, as well as meeting with Muslims at speaker's corner, I noticed they don't know how to answer questions about Muhammad. You meet with people, and then you do Bible study with them. They leave Islam, not because, oh, yeah, Jesus is wonderful, but they leave Islam, wow, I am better than Muhammad.

So as I get to see those things, as I get to observe, I'm just like, okay, Quran and Muhammad is the foundation of Islam. That's what I'm going to focus. You destroy the foundation of Islam, and then you introduce perfect foundation, Lord Jesus Christ, everything gets that easier.

Practically, it can be very difficult to have someone to leave Islam, but it takes only two minutes to cause them to have doubt.

Eric Huffman: Yeah, and that's clearly been your strategy, and it's been effective. I mean, thousands of Muslims have come to faith in Christ through your ministry, including imams and other leaders. Your approach has been, initially it was to go to the mosques and pass out really polite, Jesus loves you flyers. And that approach has evolved.

Hatun Tash: That didn't work.

Eric Huffman: Yeah.

Hatun Tash: People take the leaflets, it says Jesus loves you, and then they walk away. Sometimes they put the leaflet in the bin. Sometimes they say, "Oh, we love Jesus too," all that. But that's not what I want. Like, Lord Jesus Christ doesn't want anyone to perish. He wants people to repent and turn to Him.

I need to find ways to kind of having conversations. Well, so, over 10 years ago, I would just give out leaflets to say Jesus loves you. Now I'll stand in front of the mosque and then say, Muhammad is false prophet, prove me wrong. That brings great crowd.

Eric Huffman: I imagine.

Hatun Tash: Yeah. You have great discussions. But it is sad how much people don't know anything about Muhammad. And it is such a privilege to just, like, expose the false ideologies and then give them the truth.

Eric Huffman: So, besides the marrying a six-year-old and, you know, being harsh with her and his other wives and advocating the abuse of women generally, what else is there about Muhammad that's so horrendous that would lead you to make this claim?

Hatun Tash: Actually, I'm not making the claim. Islamic tradition is simply exposing all those things.

Eric Huffman: Sure.

Hatun Tash: So, Muhammad's marriage with Aisha is actually a pretty big deal. Not only he married her when she was six years old and he was fondling her and all that, and he consummated marriage when she was nine. But at that stage, she was still not believing. She was still a child. So, that's abuse of child. A man who didn't think marriage was so important, you look at the Christian scripture and then you see it says covenant, man who just steps in and then breaks down marriage of his son and then marries his daughter-in-law.

So, Muhammad has adopted son, but he goes under the surname of Muhammad, like Zayd, being Zayd Muhammad's son. Muhammad breaks that marriage and then marries his daughter-in-law.

Eric Huffman: Which wife was that?

Hatun Tash: Zaynab.

Eric Huffman: Zaynab?

Hatun Tash: Yeah.

Eric Huffman: Okay. I didn't know that.

Hatun Tash: In that chapter, it talks about, okay, you can't do adoption from now on. Like, adoption, think about it.

Eric Huffman: Jeez.

Hatun Tash: Because Zayd was Muhammad's adopted son.

Eric Huffman: Right.

Hatun Tash: Muhammad So, you can't do adoption because, well, you might fall in love with the woman.

Eric Huffman: Wow. That's the reason?

Hatun Tash: Yeah. But think about it. As a Christian, we are adopted in the family of Lord Jesus Christ. Because of Lord Jesus Christ, we call His Father our Father. Everything that belongs to Him becomes belongs to us. It's like amazing thing Bible gives us. And then in Islam, adoption is banned. Why? Because Muhammad has lustful desires for his daughter-in-law.

Eric Huffman: Wow.

Hatun Tash: Then in that chapter, it also talks about when you don't need your wife anymore. Like, how many times did you wake up and then say to your wife, without your glasses, I don't need you anymore? And then you put your glasses on, and I don't need you anymore. So, made marriage and divorce so easy, and then today we get to see the applications of that in Muslim world.

I mentioned child marriage. What Muhammad did to Aisha is now practiced in Yemen. It is in the Quran. I met with girls in Yemen who were in hospital because they were too little when man try to force himself to her. She's in hospital.

Eric Huffman: And it's justified by the holy books or the faith.

Hatun Tash: Yeah. So, who do you think you are condemning it? It is acceptable in Islam. This is Islam. As a Christian, we are set free. We are not slave anymore. We become children of most high king. Islam kind of continuously make people slave. Relationship between Allah and Muslims are slave. That's all you can be. That's the highest place Islam offers you. Not adopted children, not children at all, but you are slave.

And not only that, slavery is practiced in Islam, and it is going to be practiced in Islamic heaven. You look at Muslims who are very much devoted. You look at them and then you say, wow, she does her prayers. She does her fasting. She's very good mom. She does all mother duties, husband duties. But Allah is not even going to allow her to get into Islamic paradise because once a month she bleeds. And she's deficient in her mind because she's not grateful to her husband and she bleed once a month.

Eric Huffman: Wow.

Hatun Tash: Majority of women are seen in hell. So, okay, what else? And then you get to hell, you get to Islamic paradise, you've got these eternal slaves. Boys who are not bleeding after they serve you, they are slaves for eternity.

Eric Huffman: What do you mean boys who are not bleeding?

Hatun Tash: Yeah. So, there are boys in Islamic paradise is going to serve men. And whatever the context is, after they do their service, they're not going to bleed. So, it's in sexual context.

Eric Huffman: Oh, jeez.

Hatun Tash: So, you kind of get to see all these things. And you've got slaves not only in this world... Like just go to Saudi Arabia and then see how modern-day slavery is being practiced. And then you get these slaves and abuse of slaves in Saudi, but you go to Islamic paradise and then you get to see more slaves.

So, Muhammad's love towards Black people is just like so disgusting. He hates Black people. If anyone calls Muhammad Black should be killed.

Eric Huffman: It says that in the scriptures?

Hatun Tash: Yeah. It's not very nice religion. So, it has problem. Muhammad has problem with single woman, with married woman. Muhammad has problem with children. In the context of mockery, even like sometimes we say like even vegetables are not safe in the hands of Muslims. Because what Islam teaches as an ideology, which is there to meet the sexual desire of men. Think about Las Vegas, but free version of Las Vegas in Islam.

Eric Huffman: But only for men too, by the way.

Hatun Tash: Yeah. Well, who cares about woman? So, Bible tells us marriage between one man and one woman forever. Islam comes one man to four wives. Plus, plus, you can have short term marriages under the label of Muta, under the label of Misia, under the label of friendship. So, you can get around having sex with like piece of paper or just magical words.

And that's not enough. You can get sex slaves. Muhammad's love towards Jews and Christians is just like fruit of what we are seeing terrorist organization Hamas did to Israel. Muhammad's love towards Christians and Yazidis, non-religious groups, what we have seen as the fruit of ISIS in Iraq and in Syria.

Eric Huffman: Wow.

Hatun Tash: It is ideology doesn't give you right to believe. It is kind of God of Islam, sorry for the language, but it's a rapist who forces himself on you even if you don't want him. Don't take me. You have to take me. You have to have me. You have to have me. If you walk away from me, I am this harassing husband who sends his mafia after you.

Eric Huffman: Wow.

Hatun Tash: You don't even have right to just go and worship someone else or something else.

Eric Huffman: And Christianity, we have this image of God as a loving Father who even when you leave, just waits for you to come home and runs out to embrace you.

Hatun Tash: Yeah, pursues you. Pursues you as a caring, protecting husband or loving father just waits for you to turn. You choose to walk away from... God of Bible is not a God who dominates. He loves and then His love silence you, makes you get on your knees. Versus God of Islam is like, "You have me. If you don't, you have to deal with the consequences."

Eric Huffman: So after spending some time outside of the mosques, you decided to take the ministry or the outreach to something called Speaker's Corner. I know everybody in Britain knows what that is, but for us foreigners, let us know a little bit about what Speaker's Corner is and what drew you to that place.

Hatun Tash: Actually, while I've been to Speaker's Corner, I always continued my ministry in mosques as well as on streets. Because Speaker's Corner is only for Sundays. It's a small park in central London, where all Sundays from sunrise to sunset, you have right to practice your freedom of speech. So you shouldn't be get arrested or harassed or other things, harmed because what you are saying.

So this square, everyone comes there knowing that they are going to have debates and discussions with people who disagree with them. So you don't need Speaker's Corner because you've got First Amendment. So park is very big, but the small side of that park is identified as Speaker's Corner. It's been over 150 years. It's been there in the intention of when someone got death penalty in the past, they would bring that person into Speaker's Corner, just like kind of maybe a hundred feet from Speaker's Corner, current Speaker's Corner, that that person would say his last sayings before they hang him. So tradition goes very farther back.

But the purpose of that square is you are there to have controversial debates and discussions or talk whatever you want to talk. So you meet with people who wants to make a case that how high heel is the most essential thing in the life of woman. You will have people who comes and that says, well, I want to be identified as three. Or you want to have people who wants to come and say, Mohammed is false prophet, as well as you have people who wants to come in and say, Jesus is just a prophet.

So, currently, majority of Speaker's Corner attendees are Muslim missionaries. They kind of hold the majority at the corner, but you can talk about anything you want to talk.

Eric Huffman: At least in theory, I know it hasn't always gone that way for you.

Hatun Tash: In theory, you can talk about whatever you want to talk. Yeah.

Eric Huffman: So you started showing up at Speaker's Corner. Did you bring the "Jesus Loves You" pamphlets or did you bring all the edgier arguments about Mohammed?

Hatun Tash: So when I first went to Speaker's Corner, I was just newly graduated from Oxford, kind of thinking, "Well, I finished Oxford. I know all my things. Like I'm this now educated woman." I turned up to Speaker's Corner. So that's like back in 2012, 2013 or something. I met with Muslims at Speaker's Corner. They've got Bible with lots of like notes in it. They're reading the Bible to me. They're asking me questions. I had no idea how to respond. It was a very bad day. They were bringing like verses from the Old Testament, books from the Old Testament I didn't even know they were exist. But it was a great place.

So I left Speaker's Corner on my first Sunday by crying. It was like bad. And then I said, "I'll check the answers, I'll come back to you." We heard Americans are very rude comparing the British people."

Eric Huffman: Well, I'm thinking about your context in particular.

Hatun Tash: So at Speaker's Corner, it's not very British. So you don't say like "excuse me" stuff. Just like, get on. So I grew up in a culture where you don't speak over men. Women are quiet and then you just submit what they say, all that. And then suddenly you are at Speaker's Corner, everyone is men. And then you just like, it takes months for you to figure out, Okay, when are they going to give me... when they are going to have a pause so I can start my answer. Like all the skills which I never had, you had to develop. You have to develop like, Okay, now I'm going to speak over them. Now I'm going to cut their sentence off. Now I'm going to bring my volume up. Now I need to think on my feet.

You don't even have time to just open up your Bible and then read full passage to answer. You've got like less than two minutes to get their attention and then answer the question. So lots of things you needed to learn.

So as the time went on, you start to develop those skills. And then a couple of years after I've been to Speaker's Corner, I start developing polemic skills. So like all I was doing, just answering the same questions every week.

And then Jay Smith had a debate with Shabir Ally, where it was about the preservation of the Quran. Shabir Ally was not able to answer those very basic questions Jay Smith was raising. I was like, "Oh, I am the one who answers those questions every week. Let me see if they can answer those questions." And then I noticed, nope, Islam never been on question. They don't know how to answer a very basic question. So then, okay, I find a problem. So I am the one who is going to develop the skills to ask questions.

So 10 years ago, I had to bring all the sources to make a case that Muhammad married Aisha when Aisha was just a child. Muhammad had sex with her when she was just a child. And then I had to bring all my sources and then kind of like read them and then make sure they check it. And the following week, I need to go and find them and say, "Did you check the references?"

But as the time went on, I was like, I don't even need to mention Muhammad. I just said, "Sir, you are Muslim, right? Would she have sex with nine years old girl who is not bleeding yet?" Respond to that is like, "Not I wouldn't." Respond to that is, "No, my prophet didn't do." Because they know within 10 years now they know I'm talking about the prophet without mentioning. I'm talking about it. I'm just like, "I didn't ask about your prophet. Would you do that?"

Eric Huffman: But their claim is that he actually didn't do it, even though the scriptures say he did?

Hatun Tash: Yeah. And then as time goes on, and now they developed answer where she was mature enough. In seventh century, nine years old, was like bleeding and then big, all these kinds of things, Muhammad didn't harm her. So they start justifying it. But it was just not acceptable at all. I was a liar. Everyone who stated that was a liar until they figured out, yeah, now the Muslim scholars are saying, "This is not something we can shame or lie about. This is how it is. We just need to deal with it."

Eric Huffman: Yeah. Wow. I know that some of your tactics, I understand given what you've shared about Speaker's Corner and the environment there and how you need to be a little bit brash, I guess, maybe a little bit loud to get your voice heard. Some of your tactics came under some criticism, I guess, from polite Brits and others in the West. Things like drilling holes in the Quran, for example, or some of the claims that you've made, some of the points you've made about Islam and the prophet Muhammad. How do you look at some of the things you've done, the tactics you've employed to make your points at Speaker's Corner?

Hatun Tash: Oh, how I wish I thought about those things much earlier.

Eric Huffman: Really?

Hatun Tash: Oh, how I wish. Everyone who grows up, grow up as a Muslim, grow up with the idea that Quran has been perfectly preserved, dot by dot, letter by letter, sound by sound, word by word. And wherever in the world you go, Quran is exactly the same from China to Morocco, to Saudi, to England, to America. Okay?

And I come across with a book that identifies as a Quran that physically was different from the Quran I was reading. I paid $1 in Morocco to buy it. I came back to England and then I compared them dot by dot, letter by letter, and they were different. I asked the Arabic speakers if they can check the meaning of those words. Like I went through page of the Quran and then underline every word that looked different or shape that looked different from other Quran and then I asked Arabic speakers to check it. They checked it. And then some of them are just like same thing, just written differently. Some of them had a different meaning. It would change the meaning.

I was like, "That's impossible because there is only one perfect Quran." And I collected Quran from different parts of the world. And then back in 2015 or '16, we turn up the Speaker's Corner with Jay Smith and put together 26 different Arabic Qurans. They are Qurans, Arabic, and the letters meanings in those books were different from one another, okay? In one of them, it says kill, in other one, it says fault. Like you've got lots of different words in them.

Eric Huffman: Sure.

Hatun Tash: And after that, I'm kind of trying to have debates and discussions regarding the perfect preservation of the Quran. Muslims are shutting every conversation down. I find, in my mind, like, this is a big deal. Now, like I'm proving Quran is being not preserved at all. And in my hands, I've got physical evidence. Every time, every Sunday, I'm trying to have conversation, trying to introduce, bring response to their arguments, regular Muslim missionaries would come and then shut down the conversations. They wouldn't want me to speak with someone who is passing through the Speaker's Corner or visiting the Speaker's Corner.

And during the COVID, Muslim missionary, who I mentioned earlier, Mohammed Hijab, he interviewed one of the giant minds of Islam, Yasir Qadhi. He's based in Texas. He's setting up this Sharia community in Texas. He interviewed him and then he asked the very basic questions we are asking at Speaker's Corner. I've got different Arabic Quran in my hands, which one is the eternal word of Allah? And then he kind of found the questions, many different things. And then at the end, Yasir Qadhi expressed, well, standard holds his narratives in it.

So he wouldn't be able to, if you give him a piece of paper, he wouldn't be able to write down only one version of the Quran. He doesn't know. And then he expressed that like crossing the red line, don't do it, all those kinds of things.

So that interview came out simply supporting all the arguments I'm putting forward for here at Speaker's Corner. I turn up to Speaker's Corner and then I ask those people, especially the gentleman who interviewed Yasir Qadhi, they are telling everyone, "Don't talk to her. Don't talk to her." Like they don't want me to kind of expose what happened on internet.

I went week after week, approaching the same people, telling about holes in the narrative. What would you write in an empty paper? Which Musaf would you put there? Which is the eternal word of Allah? What is in eternal tablets? They are shutting me down, shutting me down. And then I'm just like, "Well, Yasir Qadhi said, Islamic narrative has holes in it."

I put the holes in the Quran and then I took it to Speaker's Corner to use as a tool to open up the conversations. People come, "Why did you put holes in my Quran?" Well, Islamic narrative has holes in it." And then you simply start breaking down the standard narrative and then explaining and then asking them question.

It caused someone during the COVID, so we had COVID restrictions, all the way from Malaysia to travel to England to ask me why I did it. And that same gentleman who also emailed Muslims to asking, "What did they mean when they say standard narrative has holes in it? What does that mean when it comes to the preservation of the Quran, when it comes to the Ahruf and Quran?"

Muslims didn't even deal with him. Muslim missionary put a video up and then shouted everyone, "If this is causing you to doubt, you are not believer at all." So he just like shouted people. But same gentleman walked out of Islam because in his mind, Quran has been perfectly preserved. If I have been lied about the perfect preservation of the Quran, what else I have been lied to? That caused lots of people to leave Islam.

Eric Huffman: Yeah. Wow. I say, praise God to that. Clearly the rhetoric at some point broke down. They couldn't go toe to toe with you on a rhetorical basis. And so in the news, there've been stories of them resorting to violence. Can you talk a little bit about the violence and threats you faced?

Hatun Tash: Yeah. So they are trying to shut you down. And then sadly, conviction of gospel is like so powerful. You can't shut up. When you see people are living in darkness and they love living in darkness, you want to bring the light of Lord Jesus Christ. You want to expose their false ideology. Well, I continue to do the way my convictions were kind of clear.

And then as the time went on, police turns up in the house and then says, "Well, we were informed that people want to murder you. Stop going to Speaker's Corner. You turn up to Speaker's Corner, Muslims start like dragging you on the floor. They are hitting you, all that kind of things."

Eric Huffman: That happened to you?

Hatun Tash: Yeah.

Eric Huffman: How often would that happen?

Hatun Tash: Oh, well, after 2020, it got like out of control. So people turn up to speak... like people hired to came all the way from Scotland to just punch me.

Eric Huffman: Wow. And the police's response was just to tell you to shut up?

Hatun Tash: Police told me, well, I know the consequences of going to Speaker's Corner. It's better to not go to Speaker's Corner. "We generally advise you to move your house, cut all those ties because people you are with, they are in danger." So they start giving me like official uthman warnings, which is simply piece of paper, tells you your life is in danger. We want to inform you.

Eric Huffman: Wow.

Hatun Tash: But they are doing nothing to protect you. So someone comes all the way from Scotland to punch me and then set the example. Police, after kind of dealing with it, decides, oh, police is closing down the case because this guy is poor.

Eric Huffman: Because he's poor?

Hatun Tash: Yeah, he's poor.

Eric Huffman: He hit you because he's poor?

Hatun Tash: Yeah.

Eric Huffman: I don't get it.

Hatun Tash: In the beginning was like, oh, because what I said, and then police like, after they send you email or voicemail to say like case is closed, they don't even answer any of your questions. Like just today, I got a voicemail from like... what is the date today?

Eric Huffman: The 14th.

Hatun Tash: It's Holy Monday. Yeah, 14th. So I got voicemail from police. So something happened 2023, November, October, November. So I went to police. Police was very nasty. So once they recognize who you are, they are very nasty. And we've got lots of Muslim police officers.

They took me even to the hospital. And then they left me voicemail this morning to say case is being closed because they cannot find the files, which they kind of stored, as well as they cannot identify the people. Unless I can give them their address, they might be able to do something. But police informed your case is being closed.

Eric Huffman: Wow.

Hatun Tash: So you've got this great Western civilization, Great Britain, and founded on Christian ideals and principles, and this idea of Speaker's Corner being for free speech, and anybody can say what they want there. And yet now, for some reason, in the last five years, that has all changed to the extent that you are being told by the police, "Hey, if you don't want to get killed or beaten up, stay home. And by the way-

Hatun Tash: Not even stay home, you need to change your home. I moved like. I moved 50 different places.

Eric Huffman: 50?

Hatun Tash: 50 different home addresses, postal addresses. And police gave my home address to very people who wanted to murder me.

Eric Huffman: Whoa.

Hatun Tash: Gentleman made a video. Last week police informed me case is closed. Gentleman made a video, he's going to murder me. Police invites him to do interview. He doesn't even turn up the interview. This happened before as well. And then finally, when he turns up the interview or whatever, I don't know even if he turned up the interview, but finally police leave me voicemail to say like, well, he didn't mean to murder you.

Eric Huffman: He just talked about it?

Hatun Tash: Yeah. So people turn up. People went a few feet away from me, had a chemical to throw up on me. And then police said they haven't done anything wrong yet.

Eric Huffman: Wow. They show up to where you are with chemicals in hand with clear intent and they-

Hatun Tash: Yeah. Because they haven't told us it yet, so they have not committed crime. So police gave my address, home address to very people who want to murder me. Like they made a video that they are going to murder me and then police says, "Yeah, she lives here."

Eric Huffman: How do you know that for sure that they're the ones that gave them your address?

Hatun Tash: Oh, so gentleman told me, came to Speaker's Corner, and then he told me, I was like... I just thought he's lying. And then I called the police because I got people break into my house. And then I called the police. And then police says, "Oh, it was slip of tongue."

Eric Huffman: Oh my gosh.

Hatun Tash: And in one occasion, police sent a text message to a gentleman who apparently had a recording of what happened to me. And then in that police tells, "Oh, we are looking at this case because she lives here." So they are just telling this stranger where I live. In three occasions, police expressed that was the slip of tongue. But it caused me to kind of move from one place to other place and leave my loved ones behind.

Eric Huffman: How soon? I've seen a lot of your interviews online and doing research for this. All of your interviews look like this with you sitting in front of a nondescript curtain. Is that why? Is that part of the reason?

Hatun Tash: Actually, I just changed my place a couple of weeks ago. So it was bold. It's not curved. It wasn't-

Eric Huffman: But like a lot of interviews, you know, you have like keepsakes behind a person or like important... you know, you maybe can see something about where they are. Are you in constant sort of not fear, but are you always vigilant?

Hatun Tash: So my loved ones been in danger. My loved ones had to sell their homes and then move to the different places. People express that because of me, they don't feel safe. So it made life very difficult. Right now I'm staying at friend's place. For well-being of the person, so this is the like setup I have.

Eric Huffman: Yeah. And there's been-

Hatun Tash: It's not like I am hiding or anything. I'm like on the streets doing the things I continue to do. It's just for the like... I don't want to live in tent. Sometimes I do, but I don't want to. I don't want someone else to look into my eye. Beloved of Christ to look into my eye and then say, can you leave? I don't feel safe.

Police like turns up to my house, like 12 o'clock in the morning, 5 a.m. in the morning to just tell, me your life is in danger. And then when you say, "So are you going to do anything? Like, are you doing anything about these people?" "No, we just wanted to inform you. So that's the purpose of like, something happens to you, we can say, you knew this is happening to you and you choose to continue to do what you are doing."

Eric Huffman: Reminds me of Pontius Pilate like washing his hands of Jesus. "I'm not going to be responsible for this. I just wanted to inform you." Gosh, that's shocking. In a place like the UK of all place, it's just so shocking. And we haven't even really talked about the most egregious examples of violence you faced. I mean, talk to us about what happened in 2021 and when someone brought a knife.

Hatun Tash: Oh, yeah.

Eric Huffman: It's so interesting to me that so many things have happened to you that that's so deeply buried in your memories that you hardly remember it.

Hatun Tash: So someone who I don't even recall if I ever met or talked, all I remember was I was having this very gentle conversation with someone who become a Muslim. And we were talking about like how becoming Muslim and fights within Islamic circle can affect where you stand, all this. It was very rainy day. I remember that. And last thing I remember, like, bloods, all those kind of things.

Figured out I got stabbed, taken to hospital, all that. And then it turned out that London is a place, city, that has the most CCTV cameras. Police that day didn't interview anyone, didn't talk to anyone, just let everyone go. Following week, police turned up to Speaker's Corner and asked if anyone wanted to talk to police about what happened last week, because Speaker's Corner from Sunday to Sunday. And then no one kind of shared anything.

A couple of people came to me and then they told me they know which mosque this gentleman goes to. I shared that information with police. Nothing happened. Gentlemen came and then told me what is happening in the mosque, what is being taught. I shared that with the police. And then I said, "This is the gentleman who tells me that." Police turned to me and I said, "We don't have any right to force anyone to share any information. If they want to share anything with us, they can come and then they tell us."

So you say it happened 2021, right? And it's 2025. It's 2025. And that gentleman is still on the streets. I was informed that he was around Speaker's Corner a couple of times in the last couple of years, but well, police can't find him.

Eric Huffman: Wow.

Hatun Tash: I wouldn't be surprised if I get a voicemail to say like case has been closed. So I wouldn't be surprised by it.

Eric Huffman: So what's going on in the UK in regard to these issues? Like let's imagine it was militant Christians showing up to the Speaker's Corner, terrorizing Muslim imams and those speaking on behalf of Muhammad and Islam and stabbing them and threatening them with acid and things like that. Do you think the police response would have been different in that instance?

Hatun Tash: Yeah. You can't even pray in your head in Britain now.

Eric Huffman: What do you mean?

Hatun Tash: Like there is a lady, she's been arrested, simply praying in her head in England.

Eric Huffman: But not a Muslim because Muslims pray in England.

Hatun Tash: Yeah. She's Christian woman who prayed in her head and she was charged for it. So she was arrested for it.

Eric Huffman: So what's behind the anti-Christian pro-Muslim enforcement?

Hatun Tash: So Muslims are these persecuted groups, poor Muslims, and currently they are able to control with their political agenda to the parliament. And it's very, very dangerous. They are forcing into blasphemy laws. Even though they are minority yet still, they're like in London, like 12% of London is Muslim, but mayor of London is Muslim. Prime Minister is deem me to Muslim. And we've got lots of illegal immigrants. So for them to be in power, it is depend on how they please Muslims. So therefore it works with them.

Eric Huffman: So it's political convenience. Yeah. I think there's also an element of the politics of oppression that has wreaked havoc on the West. I think just sort of cultural Marxism. But are they afraid? Are politicians and police afraid of Muslim backlash?

Hatun Tash: I don't know.

Eric Huffman: Okay. I'm just curious.

Hatun Tash: But I know that you turn on the telly 7th of October in the morning, you see womans are screaming for their life. Kids are being murdered. Kids are being kidnapped. Men and women is being kidnapped. And that afternoon government is giving permission to the supporters of terrorist organization to do demonstrate week after week. So that shows priority of police is different.

I know that if I go to police and then express that this has just happened to me, I need your help or your protection, police turns to me and then says, well, you need to think about this before you convert to Christianity.

I sat in a table where a gentleman, like where I am physically harmed and police respond was, why are you wearing that shirt?

Eric Huffman: Jeez.

Hatun Tash: So like the clips you have seen at Speaker's Corner is only a little bit of it.

Eric Huffman: I'm sure.

Hatun Tash: Not everything is public because I don't walk around with the camera. But none of those people who wants to murder me, who wanted to murder me, who hired people to murder me, who brought up their gangster Speaker's Corner to murder me or harm me or shut me down, none of them ever been told by the police to stop doing this. None of them.

Like yesterday at Speaker's Corner, someone sent me a message. A Muslim pushed this Christian guy from the ladder. His ladder is pretty high and he was almost about to hit the rails with his head. So that would just like kill him. A Muslim man did that to him and then police just let him go. So at Speaker's Corner, police and Muslims are very buddy to one another. And police is supposed to be upholding the law for everyone. Doesn't matter their gender, doesn't matter their religion. Their job is to uphold the law and then I pay lots of tax money for them to do so. But no, when it comes to Christians, when it comes to protecting Islam, yeah, police is there to discredit Christians, shut the Christians down and protect Islam.

Eric Huffman: It's shocking and I wish we could talk more about it. We're almost out of time. I want to respect your time that you've given us today. I've just got like two more quick questions if it's okay, Hatun. I just got to ask, why in the world would you keep doing this? I mean, person to person, not even like Christian to Christian, just practically speaking. You're a wonderful young woman, got your whole life ahead of you. You could move to the suburbs and take a professorship probably and meet a nice Christian boy and have a nice family and settle down. What keeps you going given all of these threats and acts of violence?

Hatun Tash: Well, I lived in many different places and even in suburbs, yeah, people come after you. So that's the first thing.

Eric Huffman: That's true.

Hatun Tash: Second thing is, it is such a strange, you are expressing, oh, I can just like marry with nice boy and then just like start a new life by thinking my value or my lifestyle or my convictions will change if I get married. Bible doesn't speak to me as a married woman or single woman. Bible speaks to me as someone who is, you know, who is saved by the greatest savior ever.

So reading the Bible... like I, once I got beaten outside of the mosque and mosque had a CCTV camera. Somehow police couldn't figure out what happened. Magical things happens. And I was in hospital, like the bones I didn't know were so hurting. I was in hospital for a couple of days. It was like very painful. The bones like, I didn't even know they were exist. They were like very painful. And all I was thinking is, these people need Jesus. These things are happening because they need Jesus.

So you look at the Bible and then you see people love living in darkness, but darkness is scary. I lived in a tent in the evening when my torch finishes and I don't have light. It is scary. It is cold. You don't want to be in such places. Lord Jesus Christ comes and then shines his light. Heart of Lord Jesus Christ, humble and lowly. He doesn't want people to go to hell. He wants them to hear Him.

My conviction is I cannot convert anyone. There are some people who converted from Islam to Christianity. I really wish sometimes they didn't convert because they were like so nasty. Like the way they treated me, it's just like out of control. But today they are my brothers and sisters. I'm going to spend eternity with them.

So it is God's desire. It is God's heart for them to spend eternity with Him. And God's heart is so generous, uncomfortably generous, and you just can't do anything about it. So I'll pass the message to them, once they understand and then they make the informed decision whether they want to be Muslim or not, whether they want to be Christian or not. Once their decision is informed, it is up to them. It's between them and between Lord. There's nothing to do with me.

But I am convinced that the glorious gospel of our glorious God needs to be heard.

Eric Huffman: Amen.

Hatun Tash: It needs to be heard. And I can't just like... I am giving this freely. Son of the Father goes to cross just for me. While no one looks at you, while you are not worthy, but someone says, I love you. Someone says, not only I love you, but here is my heart and take it. Every human being has right to hear that. Every human being has right to see the reliability of the Christian scripture, see the beauty of God and His truth. And it's up to them whether they want to live in darkness or in the light. But my job is to make sure they make that decision, their decision is informed.

Eric Huffman: Yeah. Amen. Well, I thank God for you and your courage and I'm inspired by it. It makes me want to go out to the city streets of Houston right now and share the gospel. I think it's emblematic of something that happens to the believer's heart. It's not a question of why do you do this? It's a question of how could I not? How could I not do this given how free and full this gift of grace is for me poured out in the form of Jesus' blood on the cross? And how could I not give everything I have back to God and to share His truth with His world? And even though the world's going to be hostile and the darkness doesn't love the light, you've experienced that in Speaker's Corner and in front of mosques and elsewhere. And we can only assume that they're still going to be out to get you and our prayers are going to be with you, Hatun.

If anybody wants to find out more about you and follow your ministry or support your ministry, could you just tell us how they could do that? How can they find you and support you?

Hatun Tash: Well, don't find me, don't support me. So I'm someone who is convinced that gospel is so glorious and needs to go out. So if you want to find out about me, just read the Bible, read the Bible and just go out and preach the gospel. Certain earthly ministries I am involved called DCCI Ministries. I've got like YouTube channels. Subscribe to them and then check it out. But for me, it's more about there are people out there and they are dying not knowing what Lord Jesus Christ did for them. So act on it.

As you said, how can we step back and then not do anything about it? Love of God is so powerful. If it changed me, which it did, it will change the world. And the world is a messy place, everything messed up. But we were told about it and King of Kings is on the throne. He will come and set everything right one day.

Eric Huffman: Amen.

Hatun Tash: So the best way to support me is simply just go out and reach your neighbors who don't know about Lord Jesus Christ. That's more important to me.

Eric Huffman: Amen. You are a blessing and I can't wait to spend eternity with you by the grace of God.

Hatun Tash: Nothing personal, but in eternity, my focus will be my trying God.

Eric Huffman: Amen.

Hatun Tash: I wouldn't even be around you.

Eric Huffman: I'll be beside you. We'll just be looking the same direction. So thank you so much, Hatun, for joining us and sharing part of your story. And if you are watching or listening right now and you want to know more about her, despite what she said, I think you can find stories about Hatun online. Just as she said, Google is a gift. So Google Hatun Tash and you'll find all kinds of awesome stories. Hatun's on YouTube as well. And she mentioned her, one of her ministries, DCCI, that you can find online. And we'll put some links in the description of this video as well, if you want to know more.

Hatun, thank you so much, sister, for sharing this story with us today. I'm so grateful for you and pray God's blessings and protection upon you.

Hatun Tash: Thank you very much.