Why This NFL Star Walked Away To Follow God
Inside This Episode
Former NFL player Derwin Gray had everything the world says should make you happy—fame, money, success—but he was still left feeling empty and inadequate. In this powerful Christian testimony, Derwin shares about his broken childhood, life in the NFL, the teammate who introduced him to Jesus, and how he finally found lasting purpose, identity, and rescue through faith.
Pastor Derwin Gray also discusses his latest book, Lit Up with Love: Becoming Good-News People to a Gospel-Starved World—a timely message for anyone seeking to live with boldness and compassion.
Derwin Gray’s latest book, Lit Up With LoveÂ
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Transcript
Eric Huffman: Why would a man who spent six seasons playing professional football walk away from all that fame and money?
Derwin Gray: None of those things can heal you. None of those things can save you.
Eric Huffman: Why did this NFL defensive back feel so much emptiness at the peak of his career?
Derwin Gray: I literally pried myself to sleep thinking, how can somebody like Jesus love somebody like me?
Eric Huffman: Today, Derwin Gray talks about his transformation from professional athlete to New Testament scholar, founding pastor, and best-selling author.
Pastor Derwin Gray, welcome to Maybe God.
Derwin Gray: Thank you, honored to be with you.
Eric Huffman: I'm honored to have you. As I was telling you before we started rolling, I've been following your work online for some time. It's really cool to see you in person like this and get to talk to you, so thanks for being here.
Derwin Gray: Well, thank you. We've never met before, but in pre-production, I was saying how envious I was of your voice. And I would love to just preach one sermon with a voice like that, is the voice of an angel.
Eric Huffman: An angel of darkness, maybe, but I will take it. Thank you. I'll take that compliment, thank you. There's a lot about you I wish I had, the athleticism, not least of which. You are a former NFL football player. You've got quite a story to tell. Just take us back to the early days growing up. Did you grow up in San Antonio, is that right?
Derwin Gray: I did, yeah, yeah. So I grew up on the West side of San Antonio, Texas. My mom was 16 when she was pregnant with me. My dad was 17. So they were kids having kids. Both of them struggled with mental health issues, substance abuse issues, but in the 70s, that wasn't stuff you talked about, particularly in a disadvantaged, poor context.
And so around middle school, my grandmother and granddad primarily on my mom's side raised me. Growing up in Texas, as you know, football's everything, right? There's Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and football. My family didn't go to church. I mean, we had a respect for the Bible, particularly from my grandma, but we didn't go to church. I didn't know the gospel.
And the human heart is gonna worship something. We can't help it. And worship is simply, where do I find love, significance, and purpose from? So football gave me that. And then when I was like in middle school, the middle school coach said to my mom, you know, "If Derwin keeps playing good, one day he could get a scholarship." And she told me that and I said, "Mom, what kind of ship is that?"
Eric Huffman: You did not.
Derwin Gray: I had never heard of a scholarship. And she said, "You know, it's like those boys on TV from Nebraska and Texas. They'll get paid with an education to play football." So that planted a seed inside of me.
And then my freshman year, sophomore year, I transferred to a high school called Converse Judson. So for me, football was my safest place, Eric. There was not family chaos. Like everything was so chaotic. There was lots of violence. There was good times too. But for me, football was a sanctuary because it gave me control. If I studied my playbook, if I worked hard, if I followed what the coaches said, I could do well.
And so my junior year, I got good. Senior year, I was great. Then I get a football scholarship to Brigham Young University, BYU. So you got a Black kid from San Antonio going to the mountains of Utah with a predominantly white Latter-day Saint or Mormon context, right? But I knew I was gonna get a great education, I was gonna play for a great coach. And I knew I was gonna play early.
But what I didn't know is that my freshman year I would meet this girl on a track team. Her name was Vicki and we'd been together for 35 years, married almost 33 years.
Eric Huffman: Wow.
Derwin Gray: So God has a sense of humor. He brought a white girl from Montana who's not Mormon to a Mormon school, Black kid from San Antonio who's not Mormon to a Mormon school, we're two unbelievers and we just connect and mesh, right?
So football career is going great. Got my dream girl. I get drafted to the NFL and in my mind, I made it. And this is what that meant for me. Number one, it meant that the money I sent home would fix my family, it didn't. It meant that the new clothes would fix the inside of me, it didn't. The fame and status would heal my insecurity, it only heightened it.
I also knew that the NFL stands for Not For Long. And so what would I do after that? I didn't know the word "sin", but I knew there were things that I did bad and I needed to fix them. So kind of I would do something bad and I'd try to do something good. So it was like taking a shower and the more you put the soap on, it shows how dirty you actually are.
My third year in the NFL, I'm a team captain and at the end of that year, I'm like, "There's gotta be more to life. There has to be more."
Eric Huffman: Let me-
Derwin Gray: And at that time... oh, go ahead.
Eric Huffman: I'm sorry, I just wanna make sure that we're getting the full picture because coming from the kind of background you did, I can only imagine there were challenges growing up. Like what kind of kid would I have seen if I had met you your junior or senior year of high school? Were you staying on the straight and narrow because of football? Were there times when you strayed or when you sort of caved to some of the temptations around you? How hard was that for you?
Derwin Gray: I was too scary to do anything crazy. Like I was never violent. You know, I had a couple of girlfriends, stuff like that. I wasn't big into partying. I was a compulsive stutterer, so I was really shy. I was often alone. I had my best friend, Joe. But for me, football was everything. Like I wasn't the kid that got in trouble. I went to class. Like you would have looked at me and said, wow, that's a really good kid.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. You write in your book about several people along the way that had positive impact on you, but one in particular early in life, defensive backs coach, Mike Sullivan. What did Mike do for you at that early stage? I think it was junior or senior year, I can't remember.
Derwin Gray: What Coach Sullivan did for me is he saw the greatness in me that I didn't even know was there. He taught me how to work at a higher level than I knew was possible. So when I first transferred to Judson High School, he would make me run sprints every day after practice. And I thought he didn't like me, but he actually loved me and saw in me what I didn't see in myself.
Eric Huffman: Wow.
Derwin Gray: Then my senior year, I decided to miss practice because of ego, and I come to practice the next day and I'm fourth string. On Friday, we won the game 45, nothing. Like our team was elite. We had three guys playing the NFL off of my team.
Eric Huffman: You didn't play and they won 45?
Derwin Gray: I did not play and we won 45.
Eric Huffman: That's a reality check.
Derwin Gray: That's a reality check. So the following Monday, he pulls me into his office and he says, "You know, son, I'm not gonna let you play unless you decide to give me everything. You can be great, but it's your choice. I have your future in my hands. All you need to do is grab it." So all throughout the week, I practiced so hard, harder than I've ever practiced. I was destroying my teammates. I mean, it was just... I had a new level.
So anyway, we get to the next game, we're playing a high school called East Central, the defense runs out first and I'm still on the bench. And I literally said to myself, "Well, I guess I'm going to the Marines." And the very next play, he said, "Dewey, get in the game." Dewey's my nickname. Man, I ran on that field and it was, I was... that's when I became an NFL player. Like my intensity, my work ethic, the appreciation of the game.
I mean, it was one of the best games I ever played. Like I hit a kid so hard, I knocked him under his team's bench. Obviously, we're 50-year-old dudes now, right? But I will talk to those guys. They go, man, we don't know what got into you that game, but you were trying to kill us out there. I said, "Listen, this is what got into me. I was either going to go to the Marines or get a football scholarship. But also I owed it to my teammates. I owed it to my coaches. I owed it to myself to be the best version I could be."
And what Coach Sullivan taught me was really how to work beyond a level that you knew was possible and you began to hunger for it.
Eric Huffman: Well, what you had in him was... before you were a Christian, and it doesn't sound like he had Christian ambitions of converting you or anything. He was just being a man invested in a young man's life. And he didn't have to be. He had a whole team full of guys he could have invested in emotionally. And yet he invested in you to the extent that he showed you something about yourself that you didn't even believe yet.
We were talking about our shared affection for John Wesley before we started rolling. John Wesley talked about some of the ways that God reaches us before we're reached. He called it prevenient grace, which is the grace he shows to us before we're even saved. This is one of those breadcrumbs along the trail that God left for you that, frankly, knowing your ministry and your writings, we'll talk about in a minute, I can see that Mike Sullivan, for you, was a hope dealer. He dealt you some hope.
Derwin Gray: Absolutely.
Eric Huffman: I mean, it wasn't, again, in a religious way, but he dealt you some hope and made you believe in something that was bigger than you as you understood yourself to be at that point. And it opened your eyes and the rest is history. You end up at BYU. I can only imagine what a shock to the system. It was at Salt Lake City. Is that where BYU is? Provo?
Derwin Gray: Provo, Utah.
Eric Huffman: Provo, Utah. What was that experience like for you?
Derwin Gray: You know, it was amazing. Before we move too quickly off of Coach Sullivan-
Eric Huffman: Please.
Derwin Gray: So when we had that conversation, that was 1988. Let's fast forward to 1998. It's my sixth year in the NFL, I'm playing with the Carolina Panthers, and he calls me and he says, "Hey, tell me about the new team you're with." And I said, "Coach, I need to tell you something that's happened to me." And I began to share the gospel with him and he just gets quiet. And he says, "I need you to fly to Texas. We have to talk."
So I flew to Texas and I was speaking to one of his classes, you know, motivational talk, and then he pulled me into his office and he just starts crying. And he says, "Dewey, I've destroyed my marriage. My life has fallen apart. I need you to teach me how to follow Jesus. I need you to coach me the way I coached you."
Eric Huffman: Wow.
Derwin Gray: And so with tears in my eyes, I led him to Christ in that room. It was like the roles had reversed. And I led coach Sullivan to Christ. We talked probably every month. And it's always, "I love you." He's always, "Son." I mean, I'm a 53-year-old man and he's like, "Son, I'm so proud of you."
Eric Huffman: Come on, man. I got chills, bro.
Derwin Gray: Yeah, man.
Eric Huffman: That's so good. It's so good. And I can see how the Lord was sowing seeds in your life that would take years to flower and harvest. But once they did, it all makes sense, you know? And then you have that opportunity to share the gospel with him.
Derwin Gray: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, BYU, you know, being in a Mormon context, predominantly White people, it was really good because now I'm a pastor of a multi-ethnic church. And so I learned how to ask questions. I learned how to connect with people who were different. But also it was a great football experience. I have lifelong friends now. And I got to play for one of the greatest coaches ever, Lavelle Edwards, who's in the College Football Hall of Fame.
Eric Huffman: Wow.
Derwin Gray: So, man, I even have a banner at the stadium now.
Eric Huffman: Really?
Derwin Gray: Yeah, yeah. So God's prevenient grace is, now that I look back, I see his strokes of genius with the people and relationships and how he even used football to show me it's not enough. You were created to experience me. And until you do, you can accomplish all your goals, but you will never have the love and peace you're looking for.
Eric Huffman: Wow, amazing. You were a standout player throughout college to such an extent that you were drafted into the NFL, as you mentioned earlier. Were you drafted by the Colts?
Derwin Gray: I was. I was a 92nd pick in the 1993 draft.
Eric Huffman: Wow. So obviously a huge accomplishment. But all through those years, you were still not all-in with Jesus Christian. You were a-
Derwin Gray: Oh gosh, no, no, no, no. If you would have asked me, I would have been like, well, yeah, I'm a Christian, but Jesus as my savior, walking in the power of the Holy Spirit, reading the Bible, I would have been a fairly nice unbeliever.
You know, in 1994 for the Colts, I won the RCA Man of the Year for community service and those things. So I would have looked at you and I would have said, well, I'm a good person. Because I didn't realize that the gospel was not good news about what Christ has done. My gospel would have been, here's my resume. Look how good I am.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, you were nominally religious or nominally Christian, but you didn't really have internalized the gospel yet. And that all changed for you a few years into your NFL career. Talk to us about your teammate, Steve Grant, AKA the Naked Preacher.
Derwin Gray: You know, God has a sense of humor, right? So I'm drafted with the Colts and we're in training camp and I'm noticing this linebacker on the team who every day after practice, take a shower, dries off, wraps a towel around his waist, and then he gets his Bible and he begins to ask my teammates, Do you know Jesus? And in my mind, I'm like, Bro, do you know you're half naked?
And so I'm talking to the veterans on the team, I'm like, What's up with the half-naked black man talking about, do you know Jesus? And the veteran said, "Don't pay no attention to him. That's the Naked Preacher.
Steve Grant, the Naked Preacher, like he wasn't obnoxious. He had a relationship with guys. One day he asked me, he said, "Rookie D. Gray, do you know Jesus?" And I said to him, "I'm a good person." And he said, "Well, good compared to who?" I said, "What do you mean?" He says, "Well, Romans 3:23 says, we've all sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the glory of God is Jesus. Jesus is the standard of goodness."
Now I didn't know Jesus, but I had enough sense to know He's better than me and He's the standard. And so I said, "Well, what can I do to meet the standard?" He goes, "You can't do anything. Jesus met it for you, and by faith, He not only forgives your sins, but He gives you His goodness as a gift and He comes to live inside of you through the resurrection." Mind blown, right? Mind just blown.
It was a five-year process from that conversation in '93 all the way to '97 where I had to experience achieving my goals, experience heartache in football, experience injuries, experience I couldn't love my wife the way she deserved, experience that the nice suits and a nice car still didn't fix me, experience my family was still broken. It was like, God used all of that to go, none of those things can heal you. None of those things can save you.
Eric Huffman: Not even being Man of the Year could save you.
Derwin Gray: Not even being Man of the Year can save you. But Jesus can. And you know what it was? So August 2nd, 1997, we're fifth year in the NFL training camp, Anderson, Indiana, Anderson University. And I'm leaving lunchtime all by myself, walking back to my dorm room and man, the best way I can describe it, it was like somebody took a pry and just pried my heart open and it was just empty.
And I got back to my dorm room and I called my wife and I said, "I want to be more committed to you and I want to be committed to Jesus." That was my born again moment. Like I felt the physical presence of God, the divine love of God just wash over me. And for three nights, Eric, I literally cried myself to sleep thinking, "How can somebody like Jesus love somebody like me?" You know, it was almost like that Peter moment where Peter's fishing and Jesus tells him to cast a net on the other side and all these fish come in a boat and he goes, you know, "Get away from me, I'm an unclean man." It was like the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to my sin, but the depth of God's grace. And I've been lit up with love ever since.
Eric Huffman: Wow. I think you've already alluded to this implicitly, but what was it about Steve's approach? You said he wasn't obnoxious. You said, you know, he wasn't a joke in the eyes of the teammates, but he was persistent. What was it about his approach that you found so compelling?
Derwin Gray: Here's the most compelling thing that I found. So in an NFL locker room, certain player positions have certain personalities. So wide receivers tend to be the guys that have cologne and lotion in their lockers. Offensive linemen, their lockers are dirty. We, the defensive backs are always joking, playing around, kind of flashy, loud.
Well, some defensive backs were throwing tape at each other and one of them ducked and that tape hit Steve Grant in the eye and made his eye swell up. And he looked at that dude, and Steve's a big man, he goes, "If I didn't love Jesus, I would hurt you." And I was like, "This is real."
Eric Huffman: Wow.
Derwin Gray: "This is real." Another thing that I noticed is that whenever guys needed advice, they were at his locker. Whenever they need help with marriage, they were at his locker. When they needed prayer before a game, they were always with him. So there were a lot of jokes about him, but when life got tough, they were right at his locker. And I'm like, Okay, something's going on.
I was actually baptized... we were playing the Oakland Raiders and we were staying at a Marriott, I believe. Went down to the swimming pool, all these big guys and these fans and people are watching, and a bunch of my teammates. And he baptized me right there the day before a game.
Eric Huffman: In the swimming pool.
Derwin Gray: In the swimming pool.
Eric Huffman: Boy, that's gotta be memorable to say the least, to be baptized by a teammate the night before a game. You talked about being confronted with your sin and all of that. I think that's an important point to keep in mind. Sometimes people feel like Christianity is about judgment and condemnation of sin more so than about hope and joy and salvation. I think that's because sometimes that's how we come across is as judgmental too often. But there is a judgmental aspect to coming to faith. It's like you're confronted with just how you really haven't been as good as you've said.
I think the worst thing a guy can be sometimes is a pretty good guy. He can see himself as a pretty good guy because who needs a savior if you're a pretty good guy? But the Lord will confront you with your sin in a way that demands a response, right? It's like, I'm not good, but you are. Man, thank God for men like Sullivan and Grant, right, I mean, who went out of their way to invest. They saw themselves as missionaries of sorts, especially Steve, I would say.
Derwin Gray: Well, no, Steve literally saw himself as a missionary. When he was drafted out of University of West Virginia, he said a prayer. He said, "Lord, there are two teams I don't wanna go to, the Indianapolis Colts and the Green Bay Packers." But the team I go to, I'm gonna share Christ with everybody.
So when he got drafted by the Colts, he says, "Well, Lord, you heard my request, but you must have wanted me at the Colts. And I commit to you that I'm gonna reach as many of my teammates, coaches, and front office people as possible." So from that Colts team, there are multiple of us in full-time vocational ministry because of his direct influence.
Eric Huffman: Wow, praise God, man. We need more believers that see themselves as missionaries in the world. I think that example he set for you has influenced you, obviously.
Derwin Gray: 100%.
Eric Huffman: I think it led to the writing of this new book. You've written many books, and this one is your latest book, Lit Up With Love. You just said that being saved by Jesus felt like you were being lit up with his love. What does that mean to you? What is that phrase exactly? What does it mean?
Derwin Gray: So lit up with love simply means this, that the testimony of scripture says that God is love. So that's 1 John 4. Love is not something that God does. Love is something that God is. He cannot help but be loving. So when He looks at the mess that we've made of His creation, when we look at the mess that we've made of each other, His love compels Him to come and clean that mess up. And the way He cleans that mess up is by the spilling of His blood. His blood washes us clean. His blood reconciles us. His blood makes us righteous. His blood gives us forgiveness.
But He doesn't stop there. He actually raises from the dead and says, the life I lived on earth, I want to now live in you through the power of the Holy Spirit. I now want to light you up with love. And so one of the biggest issues I see as a pastor is there are a lot of, and I hope this comes across the right way, there are a lot of Christless Christians. And what I mean by that is many actually don't want Christ Himself. They want Christ to do something for them. So He becomes a means to an end instead of the end and of Himself.
So what I do in Lit Up With Love is I remind people, I introduce people that love is God's idea, that God delights in loving us. That you were created by love for love so that you can be a conduit of love. And that love means that we become fully functioning human beings. Salvation is the restoration of our humanity. And then what happens is, is we get so lit up with love, we can't help but invite others to the person who gave us love, which is Jesus.
Eric Huffman: It reminds me of a book I read maybe 20 years ago called Contagious Christianity, which is like, if you know Jesus, if He's in you and you love Him, you can't not share what you love about Him with the world around. It's like an organic thing that just happens. It's not even a thing you have to put a lot of effort into. You just do it naturally.
Derwin Gray: Yeah. And when we are in an intimate intimacy, intimate you see, when we beheld Jesus and His grace, as we think more about what He's done versus what we do, that love overflows out of us, and then we begin to think as everyday missionaries.
So there's a coffee shop that I've been going to for nearly 20 years. I go twice a week. I write sermons in there. I write books in there. And people go, well, isn't that gonna interrupt you? And I go, those interruptions are divine appointments because when I go in, that's my modern-day Jacob's well, the coffee shop. I pray for God to bring people to me that don't know Him. So I've had hundreds of gospel conversations.
I've seen multiple people come to faith, but it's not something I force. It's prayer, care, share. Before I talked to someone about Jesus, I talked to Jesus about people. Lord, bring them to me. And then I just simply learned to ask questions. We live in a world where people talk so much about themselves. When you're genuinely curious, like Jesus with the woman at the well, he says to her, give me a drink. So He's curious in knowing who that person is.
Eric Huffman: He's initiated, yeah.
Derwin Gray: And I think too, Eric, sometimes people don't wanna share their faith because they think that they have to go downtown with a picket sign. They think they gotta go hand out tracts and knock on doors. And simply what I'm saying is when we are so caught up in God's grace, we dance to the rhythm of His love that we begin to see, oh, Bank of America is paying me to be a missionary at this job. Oh, my high school is educating me, but I'm a missionary in high school and college. Wherever I'm at, I'm on mission with the person of the Holy Spirit, introducing people to Jesus for the glory of the Father. And so it becomes a… this is intrinsic to my being.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Well, I've seen it. It's obvious. Right at the end of your NFL career, you started grappling with a call to pastoral ministry and church planting, went to seminary. Is that right?
Derwin Gray: I did, yeah. I went to seminary. I have a doctorate in New Testament. I love learning. I love theology. I love the Lord. I wanted to be equipped to equip God's people.
Eric Huffman: Fifteen years ago, you planted a church called Transformation Church. One facet of your church that's interesting to me, and you talk about it in your book, is just the goal or priority you had in mind of creating or fostering a multi-ethnic church.
Derwin Gray: Yeah.
Eric Huffman: Why? Why was that important to you?
Derwin Gray: Yeah, it's important to me because it's important to the Lord. Revelation 5:9 says, in the new heaven and new earth, that there are gonna be every nation, tribe, and tongue singing, worthy is the lamb that was slain. So in the new heavens and new earth, there's not gonna be a Black section, White section, Polynesians. It's gonna be just Jesus' multicolored family.
Why? Because God made a covenant with Abraham to give him a family made up of the whole earth. Jesus comes. And so when Jesus dies to forgive sins, He also creates a family with different colored skins. And so Jesus said, "You will know my disciples because they love one another. And by our unity, you will know that the Father sent Me." And so we believe that there are deep, deep theological anchorings to these truths. And so being a multi-ethnic church is the outflow of being a Jesus-centered, gospel-preaching church.
Eric Huffman: Would you feel like a failure or your church had failed the mission in some way if you were more monochromatic?
Derwin Gray: No. What I would say is God is more concerned about our hearts and the intentions by which we go about that. So if you walk into our church, it's probably 55% to 57% White and then everything else but it's very intentional through the gospel and being an everyday missionary means. I'm called to understand multiple cultures within our own country. Most pastors are not equipped to be cross-cultural in how they build churches.
When you and I were coming up in ministry, we were taught the homogeneous unit principle, which says people who look alike, vote alike, same economic status, ethnicity, you can grow a church faster.
Eric Huffman: That's right.
Derwin Gray: You can grow a church faster that way, but you can hide racism and bigotry that way too.
Eric Huffman: Wow. What have been some of the particular challenges you faced? I mean, you've led this church through some pretty intense cultural moments in recent years regarding-
Derwin Gray: Do you mean this week?
Eric Huffman: Yeah, right. I'm sure it's been a heavy burden. But how has it been a challenge?
Derwin Gray: Yeah, man. I mean, it's always a challenge, right? For example, I'll give you a real-time one. We did a sermon series last fall called Kingdom Citizens, where we're walking through Matthew 5:3-16, the Beatitudes, right? And so I'm talking about the historical context of Jews being oppressed by Romans and talking about we don't wanna be a people of political partisanship.
Like there are gonna be people who love the Lord, who are holy and beautiful and good, who vote for President Trump and don't agree with everything. They're our brothers and sisters in Christ. There are gonna be people who voted for Kamala Harris who doesn't believe in everything that she believes in, but we're brothers and sisters in Christ. And man, I had people wanting to crucify me on both sides.
Eric Huffman: Wow. I can only imagine.
Derwin Gray: How can you say they're Christians? And I'm like, Okay, let's back up. Since the start of the church and even today, 99.9% of all Christians have never been Republican or Democrat. So you're telling me that your brothers and sisters in Scotland aren't saved because they don't vote the way you vote? That was the Galatian heresy, Jesus plus.
Sadly, I think politicians have discipled the church better than we have as Christians. And yes, it's hard. And you experienced this. You're a pastor. We preach grace and mercy, but yet we don't receive very much grace and mercy. If something comes across the wrong way and it's unintentional-
Eric Huffman: Everybody's so touchy. I mean, in every comment section of every video we make on Maybe God, there's people that will say, how can any Christian vote for Trump? He's such a whatever, you know? And then how can any Christian vote Democrat because abortion, etc. It's like everybody's got these litmus tests, and in their minds, no faithful Christian could possibly vote for or be a part of the other political side.
I just bring that up to say, like, first of all, kudos to you, and all credit to you for wanting to step into that fray. Most pastors shy away from that fray because the cost is too heavy, not just to us personally, but to the churches we're leading. And so oftentimes, we just wanna sidestep that stuff and just keep our churches healthy and growing as best we can. And yet you've intentionally gone after this to say, no, the middle can hold if the middle is Jesus.
Derwin Gray: I mean, Jesus has to be pre-eminent. What I would say, Pastor Eric, is I have never seen the church in America in such shambles that she's in now. I'm not sure big and growing is always a sign of health. Now, don't get me wrong. Our church is big. Multiple campuses, thousands and thousands of peep people. I'm not against big. Matter of fact, I want every church to be big, reaching, and discipling.
But if we do so at the cost of not dealing with difficult issues, I think we're gonna stand in judgment before the Lord. And I think that's why you have conspiracy theories. I think that's why you have progressive left-leaning stuff that's involved. I would rather stand before the Lord and say, Lord, I did the best I could with humility to disciple your people than to say, Man, I was afraid that people were gonna leave.
By God's grace, we've probably grown by 600 people, at the start of the year, and the Lord continues to add to our number, and we try to love people as best we can with humility. But I do know this. The younger generation, the Gen Z, are spiritually open. And they don't want a Republican Jesus. They don't want a MAGA Jesus. They don't want a Democratic Jesus. They want Jesus who's the eternal son of God, very God of very God, Israel's Messiah who became incarnate, who lived sinless, who died substitution to death, rose again, ascended on high, and sent the Holy Spirit to live in them. That's what they want.
Preach. Preach. Amen. No. That's exactly right. And it's not just about it being what they want. It's what they're responding to because everybody's sick of the BS on both sides. And Jesus' clarity cuts through both sides BS. Like He cuts straight through it and He offers clarity, which is something we're all hungry for.
Speaking of a world that's starving, you talk a lot about that again in this book, Lit Up With Love. I don't always promote books with our guests who've written books, but I was particularly touched by this book. And I just wanted you to know that because I think it's so needed.
If you're not familiar with this book yet and you're watching and listening, it looks small and it is a smaller book, but it's packed with stuff about the importance of moving past a sort of tunnel vision view of evangelism. Like we're just out to make converts and the goal of the church is to draw people in and have attendees. And you're talking about marrying evangelism with disciple-making in a way that has I think really impacted us and our church in recent years as we finally figured out that's what the church is here to do.
Jesus told us a long time ago, go into the world and make disciples, not just to make attendees of your church, but you've got such practical tools in here. You've got study guides for groups and things like that. I assume that's why a lot of people are buying this to use in their groups and things.
Derwin Gray: Yeah, you know, Eric, that means a lot because you are a pastor and I get it. God has put favor on this book. It was out of the first printing before it was released date. It's now past the second printing and it's starting the third printing and it's been out for a little bit over a week.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. It's the Holy Spirit because this book is so needed right now and this conversation is so needed because the world is hurting so bad. He talked about never seeing the church so frayed before. I think it's a reflection of the culture at large and sadly the church is reflecting the culture instead of leading the culture. But I think people are, as you say in your book, starving for hope, most of all, perhaps. Give me some examples or some evidence for where you see that starvation happening for hope in our world.
Derwin Gray: Mental health, you know? Our church sees mental health as health and a part of discipleship. And I'm not talking about biological, genetic mental health. I'm talking about the overuse of technology. You know, there's cultural divides and there's just so many things that are pulling us apart that it's affecting our mental health. I'm seeing it in, you know, people are like, man, what kind of job am I gonna get after college? You used to go to college and then, you know, it's kind of like here's the steps that you take.
The cultural divide. I think that there's hopelessness on like, what's a man, what's a woman, what's marriage? And then there's skepticism with everything. You can't trust anybody, right?
Eric Huffman: Right.
Derwin Gray: And then, you know, people are starving for something that is real, something that is safe. And ultimately, that's not in institutions. That's in a person named Jesus. And let me say this, Jesus is safe, oh my gosh, but He is so dangerous. And what I mean by that is He will turn the tables of your life in such a way that you will find yourself doing and being something you never thought you could do or be.
I am a compulsive stutterer. I scored a 16 on my ACT. How in the world am I a pastor that speaks around the world, that leads this incredible church?
Eric Huffman: And a scholar.
Derwin Gray: And how have I written my ninth book? Because Jesus is dangerous. Jesus loves you too much. When you call His name, He will not leave you in a posture of comfortability. He will call you on mission with Him. And that's what you've been created for.
Imagine the imagery of a sailboat. A sailboat is not created to be in the harbor. It is created to be in the open seas and the wind blows. Well, the Holy Spirit wants to blow the wind of grace in your sails. And so being lit up with love is not just about going to heaven when you die. It is about the kingdom of God invading your life now and today and forever more.
Eric Huffman: Come on.
Derwin Gray: Like there is more than 2.3 kids, house in the burbs, and debt. There is more than that. That the kingdom of God is what you've been fitted for. And what is the kingdom of God? Simply it's this. It's where Jesus rules and reign as king. And ultimately that's reflected in loving God and loving your neighbor as you love yourself.
Eric Huffman: Amen. I hear your story resonating in what you just said because you had made it. You were in the NFL and you were successful, you were making money, you had fame and good reputation, good looks, everything was going your way, a good woman in your life who loved you, and yet you still felt empty. I think that angst you felt then has so fueled your ministry now because you know what it's like to feel that angst. Even when you're making it in this world, you still feel unsettled until you're settled in Christ.
Derwin Gray: Yeah, all of us. I think that's one of the things where God has given us favors. People feel like, wow, you wrote that sermon for me. You're talking directly to me. And I'm like, there's a human condition that we all have. We all want unconditional love. Who will love me at my worst? We all need an identity. We all need significance. I matter. And we need purpose.
Well, those four realities of our humanity can only be met by Jesus. But while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. You are a child of God. How significant are you? God gave His Son for you. Purpose, love God, love your neighbor as you love yourself, be on mission wherever you go.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, there's nothing like the gospel, is there? There really isn't.
Derwin Gray: There's not.
Eric Huffman: In response to this epidemic of hope starvation, you implore Christians to, once our need for hope has been met in Christ, to become hope dealers. And I love-
Derwin Gray: Hope dealers, man.
Eric Huffman: I love the idea. Because obviously it plays on drug dealers or whatever, but it's like you know your block, you live on your block, you see your block as your territory to deal hope. What do you see that looking like in the life of a barista at the coffee shop where you go or in the life of a student or a retired person, somebody climbing the corporate ladder? What's that look like to become a hope dealer?
Derwin Gray: You know what it looks like first and foremost? It looks like abiding in Christ. And the way we abide in Christ is we pray, we read the scripture, and then when we get to work, we say, Lord, today, let your light so shine in me that it would glorify you. Lord, let me be a conduit of your love. Let me add value. Let me work with excellence in such a way that people go, what is it about them? Then that opens up the door. Because when you're a good news person, people are likely to listen to the good news.
But also think in terms of relationship. Someone coming to faith is a process. Someone has to till the soil. Someone has to plant seeds in the soil. Someone has to cultivate the soil. Then the harvest. And so we shouldn't have to feel this high pressure used car salesman thing. It's more of like, man, God, let me just love this person, add value to their lives, and be prepared to give a reason for the hope that lies within.
Eric Huffman: Yes, sir. I was looking for it because I know I have it marked up because it was my favorite part of the book, actually, where you talked about how Christians misunderstand, how evangelism and discipleship work. We think of it as a one-and-done opportunity. Like you get one chance. Like Eminem. I got one shot. Do not miss your chance.
It's like people get really anxious about these openings to talk about faith with unbelievers, but you talk about it like a relational and to see it as a long game. And that's been my experience as well because you're building because you care. Earlier you said in the coffee shop, what propels you is prayer and care to share. But I think it's the caring element sometimes that's missing. It's like we're just trying to win people. But they're people. They're not products. They're people to be known and loved, and we have to care about them and show them that we care. Sometimes that takes time.
Derwin Gray: Yeah. I think we always have to go back to Jesus and look at His methodology. If there were two sermons I could only teach for the rest of my life that fulfilled the whole content of the gospel, it would be the Good Samaritan and the Woman at the Well. Because I think both of those messages show the relational capacity of Jesus.
And a lot of people don't share their faith because they think they have to be a confrontational evangelist. They think they have to seal the deal versus relationships. It took me five years.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, that's right.
Derwin Gray: It took me five years. And most people, it's gonna take them years as well. So we gotta see ourselves along the continuum and the process.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. I've seen men especially, but there's women too in our church that devote themselves to this. And it's a commitment. It's an investment because you commit yourself to loving and meeting with the same person over and over again without seeing immediate results. But you're just planting seeds and watering those seeds over time and waiting for the harvest.
Derwin Gray: I think we have to change what we think is the result. So the result, the goal for us is to love our neighbor as we love ourselves because God loved us. 1 Corinthians 3:6-7 said this, I planted, but Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So the one who plants and waters is nothing but God who gives the increase.
So when you understand that it's the Holy Spirit who takes those seeds and the watering to bring the harvest, it takes the pressure off. Derwin Gray can't save anyone. God's prevenient grace is moving and working when we don't even see it. So when someone comes to faith in Christ... so last year we baptized 209 people at a lake. It was epic, man. I mean, heads were just going all down in the water. I mean, it was beautiful, right? It was beautiful. And people would go, Pastor, wow, you led all these people to the Lord. And I go, no, no, no. The Lord led all these people to Himself and he used all of us in the process.
Eric Huffman: And what a blessing, what a privilege to be used, right? And I think sometimes we put ourselves in the main character slot where the Lord belongs. If our life in Christ were a movie, I think you said this in your book, He's the main character and we are best supporting actors at best. We're role players.
Derwin Gray: We're stagehands.
Eric Huffman: We're stagehands, even better. But we should be so joyful given where we've been and who we've been and the things He saved us from to even be stagehands in the drama of His love, I think is a privilege. So powerful, powerful stuff.
Now you also talk about there are clearly barriers in the way. Otherwise, every Christian everywhere would be sharing the gospel all the time. But most Christians don't, Derwin. Most Christians find it very difficult to be missionaries in any effective way. And there's these barriers that get in the way. Talk to us about some of the most common barriers in the way for Christians today.
Derwin Gray: You know, I think for Christians, there's barriers of like the methodology barrier, like how do I do it? And so our thing is prayer, care, share, man. It starts with prayer.
Another barrier is, well, I don't have time. Well, if you don't have time, you're in essence saying, God, my will be done, not your will be done.
Eric Huffman: Ouch.
Derwin Gray: There is the barrier of indifference. I am indifferent. And for someone with indifference, you have forgotten how good God is. And then there's another barrier that I'm coming across to now is a barrier of shame. Like there are people who, well, I'm shamed of this particular doctrine, this particular view.
Eric Huffman: Give me examples of what you mean.
Derwin Gray: You know, it's like someone may say, well, if I share my faith, they're gonna think I'm mean like other Christians who are mean to the LGBTQ community.
Eric Huffman: Got it.
Derwin Gray: And my thing that I say to Transformation Church is, regardless of who the person is, if Jesus died for them and He did, we're to treat them with honor, dignity, and respect. Every human being is worth honor, dignity, and respect. Everybody is. I don't have to agree with you to do that.
The Bible actually says, but I tell you, bless those who persecute you and love your enemies. The Bible says in Matthew 11:19, Jesus was a friend to sinners and he was called a glutton and a drunkard. And so we need to explain that you may have seen Christians mistreat people, but not Jesus. Jesus is the one that we point to. And Christians who mistreat people, we need to lovingly say, hey, you're not representing Christ. And then we need to apologize and say, you know what? My siblings in Christ was not following Christ here, but I wanna do my best to love you. Now that doesn't mean I'm gonna agree with you. I'm gonna share the hope of Christ with you and I'm gonna respect you even if you disagree and we can still go play golf together or whatever it may be.
Eric Huffman: And I'm gonna be honest about the truth of God. I'm not gonna shy away from that and compromise that. That's the hard part is finding gracious ways of holding the line on truth while also extending the same grace to others that God in His infinite mercy extended to us.
Derwin Gray: Yes, 100%. 100%.
Eric Huffman: Well, there's so much more about the barriers that I would love to get into. We're gonna be over time pretty soon and I wanna respect your time. There's a couple more questions I wanna get to. I think it's one of the most compelling things you say in the book and you've said it in the interview is that we're not just trying to save people or Christ doesn't just wanna save people from hell. Now that's part of it. Sometimes that can turn into kind of a fear-mongering kind of an approach. It's like buying a fire insurance policy as they say. That's not always a very compelling argument because there's so much more that Christ saves people for as opposed to from, right?
Derwin Gray: Amen. If we were to go back 2000 years and we would be with Jesus and Paul and Peter and John, they would have talked about Jesus as King and Messiah inviting people into the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. Eternal life, when you look at the language in the Greek, just means the age to come. So when we have eternal life, we're reborn with God in God's kingdom to live out our future in the present. That's what sanctification are growing in our faith is becoming more Christ-like of what we're gonna be in a new heaven, new earth.
And so eternal life isn't like, okay, it'll get better when we quote-unquote "leave". Of course, it will in the resurrection, but it's like God wants to give us abundant life now to love and to forgive and have spiritual gifts and the fruit of the Spirit to really be a genuine human being. Someone that we both admire, John Wesley, that's called holiness. Holiness is a life of love and love is not a wink and nod at sin. Love is beautiful and powerful. Love looks like Jesus.
Eric Huffman: It's merciful and mighty. I love it. It's grace and it's truth, not one or the other, right? And it's I think something the world is so starved for and we'll find so organically compelling if we just show it to them.
Your approach, Derwin, is so winsome and it is so optimistic and hopeful that I'm concerned for you because I think that puts you kind of a target on your back, I think. It puts you in the crosshairs of criticism from within the church. Because there's a lot of Christians today who just say, we need to stand firm, hold the line, even if the world says we're mean, we have to stand up for the truth and this is what the truth is. And so, you know, they can take it or leave it. But you're out there like, no, we gotta be lit up with love. You know this probably, but that creates opportunities for friendly fire. You have come under fire from some more conservative churches and groups. You've ended up on wokepreacherclips.com a couple of times.
Derwin Gray: Have I?
Eric Huffman: Yeah, bro. Sorry to tell you.
Derwin Gray: Oh, wow, I never knew that.
Eric Huffman: These days if you even talk about racism as a problem, they'll call you woke. That's just how divided and binary this world's become. And Christians are following right along with that. But how do you handle that kind of criticism when the call comes from inside the house of God? And what do you wanna say to other Christians that might say, look, we can be faithful to Jesus and talk about racism and you know, be critical of Republicans sometimes when need be and be critical of Democrats too? How do you respond to that sort of criticism?
Derwin Gray: Yeah, well, I think the first thing is you always respond out of a sense of security. Knowing that, okay, I know who I am in Christ, is what being brought out, is there any sliver of truth in it? If so, repent. So I think there's always humility.
Then secondly, very rarely... oh, I'll give an example. I had someone criticize me online and I had their number and I called them and the conversation wasn't like it was online. It's amazing the courage people have behind a screen or a keyboard.
Eric Huffman: Brother.
Derwin Gray: You know? So sometimes people are just doing the best that they can. I have too much to do with my wife, my children, the church guide has called me to steward to really worry about those things. But I do know this. In-person, rarely do I ever have any of those types of conversations.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, yeah.
Derwin Gray: So I think that if you have something to say to someone, you should probably say it to their face.
Eric Huffman: Especially if they're a brother in Christ, right? That's pretty much what Jesus told us to do.
Derwin Gray: Yeah. But you know what's interesting too though, is you make money now based on clips that are viewed on Instagram or YouTube. And so what I'm finding is people will say provocative outlandish things because they're getting paid for the number of views. Ultimately, the Lord has to be my defense, has to be your defense. I mean, I don't know how people have time to look at other people's stuff to pick it apart. There's too much to do.
Eric Huffman: Too much to do, that's right. I wish everybody felt that way. I pray that you'll keep a smile on your face and keep sharing Jesus with reckless abandon because the fruit is obvious. And I praise God for that.
One last question. There might be people that read your book, Lit Up With Love, or hear you on this podcast and say, I wanna be a missionary, but I've got this limitation or I've got that handicap, I got this going on in my past, whatever. Given your history with the stutter in particular and things that might have otherwise held you back and Jesus intervening there and making a way for you to serve Him nonetheless, what would you say to them?
Derwin Gray: I'm gonna give a statement and a story. I would say this to them. Who are you and who are I to deny what the Lord can do? He has a long track record of taking broken things and shining His light through.
Secondly, I don't know if you can see this on the screen, but I have a big scar right here. I got this in 1991. I was in college, junior, BYU's playing Florida State in the... it's like the Disney classic or something. We're playing in Anaheim and the football field has the baseball diamond in it because the angels are still playing. I made a tackle and when I got up, the flesh right here was no longer there, it was gone. So I have this scar here and so I can give you a testimony and a story about this scar. Well, our scars that we have become a testimony of God's grace. So regardless of whatever your limitations are, that will be a testimony of how great God is.
Eric Huffman: Amen. Yeah, a boy growing up in rough conditions, difficult family situation, 16 on the ACT, didn't know Jesus growing up, had a stutter, and now a preacher, speaker, author, and bringing people to Jesus by the hundreds. As you said this year already, praise God for what He can do. Who are we to say and put limits on what He can do, right?
Derwin Gray: Amen.
Eric Huffman: Well, Derwin, thank you so much for making the time to be with us today. I'm sorry we ran a little bit over, but you've been such a blessing. It's hard to end this conversation, bro.
Derwin Gray: Well, thank you, Eric. It's awesome, man. I really, really enjoyed our time together.
Eric Huffman: One of these days, we're going to have to take some time away and get to Pappadeaux together because I hear we have the same shared affection for Pappadeaux.
Derwin Gray: Yes, we do. In the new heavens, new earth, every meal's going to be Pappadeaux. Blackened catfish Opelousas.
Eric Huffman: I love it. I love it. We'll make it happen one day. I appreciate your time, Derwin, and just keep going, brother.
Derwin Gray: You too. Thanks a lot, man.
Eric Huffman: Thank you.
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